Amy Volas, Founder & CEO of Avenue Talent Partners: Finding your Next Role, Hiring the Best Candidate, and Believing in Yourself

Amy Volas  00:00

The number one reason why people don't get invited back in the interview process for really good roles is they can't get specific about what, about how, about why, about the lessons learned, and the ability to connect those dots back to the "so what" factor for the person interviewing them.

Callan Harrington  00:20

You're listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that led to their success. I'm your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn't be more excited that you're here. Welcome back to another episode of That Worked. I'm excited about this one. I'm joined by Amy Volas, Amy is a titan in the sales community. And she describes herself as a sales fanatic turned entrepreneur. Amy has a resume to back it up. She's sold more than 100 million in revenue throughout her sales career. She's a LinkedIn insider and top sales voice, founder, strategic advisor, and LP at Stage 2 Capital. Amy created Avenue Talent Partners to help grow early stage startups through some of their most valuable assets, executive revenue leaders. First and foremost, Amy is hilarious, and she gives such good advice throughout the entire episode. We delve into what you need to do to hire the right candidate for your company. And on the flip side of that, when building your own career, how do you use self reflection to be very intentional and specific when you're planning that next career move. She also dove into some of those personal details and the hurdles that she had to overcome when founding her own company. But I'm going to cut it there. Enough of me talking. Let's get to the show. I'm super excited for this one. Amy, welcome to the show.

Amy Volas  01:59

Hi, Callan. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. You succumbed into my peer pressure to let me be here. So thank you.

Callan Harrington  02:05

It was the easiest peer pressure to fall two of all time.

Amy Volas  02:09

Love it.

Callan Harrington  02:09

Besides maybe my first time drinking that was probably close. But this is probably a close second.

Amy Volas  02:15

Can we dig in on that story?

Callan Harrington  02:18

It involves Coors original, I'll leave it at that. Coors original. And it's in Ohio right? Just how Ohio rolls

Amy Volas  02:25

That or Natty Light, or Keystone, or Rolling Rock. I mean, there's lots of them. But yes, so good on the way in, so bad on the way out. Anyway, we'll leve it at that.

Callan Harrington  02:35

Amy, tell us a little bit about Avenue Talent Partners and and why you founded Avenue Talent Partners just in general.

Amy Volas  02:41

So we're an executive search firm, we work with early stage SaaS founders to help them get out of their own way to get hiring right the first time around, and we help them hire VP plus at that kind of executive level for sales and for customer success. I started the company, because I cared deeply about the startup ecosystem. And I cared deeply about the sales ecosystem. And I noticed through all of my trials and tribulations, so sales is my first business love, I was thrown into the enterprise sales deep end, figured out along the way, making lots of mistakes. How to do that well, I then got into sales leadership, I got out of sales leadership, went back to enterprise sales, got back into sales leadership, found my way in startups at that point was bitten by the startup bug have had two exits. And it was always in and around the HR tech recruiting talent acquisition space, that I realized the problems are the same, regardless of the industry, regardless of the size of the company, because I'm an enterprise sales gal. Regardless of what the company does, regardless of how big they are. All those things, right? Or the digital age, it doesn't even matter. It's this Cardinal sort of rule of a problem that I've seen for almost 30 years, people will tell me, I don't have a problem. And they may not say it this way. But it always translates to this. People don't have problems talking to people, they have problems finding the right people for the work that they need to hire for and then keeping them. And those have been problems that have turned me way on for a number of years. And so thinking about that, and comparing and contrasting to what happens then in the recruiting industry, especially external recruiting, and even in executive search. There's a lot of icky cringe worthy behavior. And so my mission is to take the cringe out of all that and to show people that you can do a remarkable business without cutting corners to celebrate the human condition and getting it right to defy the turnover odds that we see in tech. And so that is why I started it. That's my jam. I feel like I'm the Joan of Arc to show people, and I take that really seriously to try to lead by example while also doing good business. And that is the reason why I exist and I do this thing day in and day out.

Callan Harrington  05:02

I love it. What's an example of one of those cringy things?

Amy Volas  05:05

That I'm just ticking off boxes. And so when I show up on the candidate side, it's about a half an hour, 45 minute at best, speed date, to just confirm the things that I need to see, to convince my client to talk to them. And if I give enough of these people that something will stick and I can make a quick buck. And that is everything that's wrong in recruiting, in my opinion, because you're not really able to quantify or qualify if it makes sense to do your job of why you're getting so much money in the first place to not just source and recruit and confirm, but validate and look for alignment and understand a person because while yes, recruiters, me too, we get paid by our clients, and I care deeply about what they're trying to do and helping them get it right and solving that problem for them. But on the flip side, I care deeply about people's careers. And that's the thing is when those two things come together, and it makes sense, it's a beautiful intersection to be a part of. But when those two things come together, and it doesn't, because you're just throwing spaghetti up against the wall, kind of like what happens in sales, sales and recruiting, it's not dissimilar. That's the stuff that contributes to the problems that I see day in and day out, that I get brought in to clean up after, that the same things that make us cringe in sales are the same things in recruiting. And that's where it starts is I only want what I want, for what I want, when I want it, how I want it, to pad my wallet. And cutting corners and forgetting that human condition that it takes two people to do something good together, sometimes more than two people. But that's the cringe. That's the cringe in sales for me. And that's the cringe in recruiting for me.

Callan Harrington  06:47

How do you mitigate against that? Right? And what I mean by this is, a lot of times, I'm just thinking back like I wanted to get somebody in yesterday, right? I was I had goals I needed to hit and I had positions in which to fill. And on the other side, you know, people are tailoring themselves to whatever that position is, whether that's a good fit or not. How do you bridge that gap?

Amy Volas  07:11

The same thing that made me really successful in sales, you seek to understand, you put that discovery hat on. And first and foremost on the recruiting side, from a client perspective, it's slowing down, and understanding. So it's the difference between understanding and order taking, it's the difference between partnership and vendor. It's the difference of I care deeply about understanding what you're trying to do. And you could be an A round HR tech company. And this could be an A round HR tech company that you consider a competitor. But how you do business and the work that's required in your business, those are going to be two very different things, even though it's called a VP of sales. And so that's the intentionality that I have is to peel back those layers and to understand what is the work? And because I've done the work before, I can guide them to understand that well, wait a second, you're seeing this over here. But that actually doesn't make sense. Are you sure it's this to put together an intentional roadmap or blueprint of this is our ICP, and in this case, it's our ideal candidate profile. And to have that be kind of that North Star. And then on the flip side, taking that information, and going about it on the same way from the talent side where it's like, well, wait a second, what's important to you? What work do you enjoy doing? What don't you want to do? And let's talk about how you do those things and looking for alignment? And then if we have it, great, I'll start talking to you about my client, but we do not pitch jobs here. That's not what this is. And I think that's the thing that helps mitigate that risk to answer your question.

Callan Harrington  08:44

Yeah, it's such a good point. One of the things that I'm curious about is, so we know there's a nineteen month tenure of a VP of sales- VP of sales, head of revenue, I think they're all probably bucketed together and are pretty similar. And a lot of times, I think it's ultimately like, well, companies need to go about this differently. And there's some truth to that, and you just brought up one of the great points- it's like, slow down, figure out exactly it is what you need. Why do you need that? Why is that important? What advice would you have for the people on the other side, because I know I've been on that I have my opinions on this, but I'd love to get this from you. I've been on the other side, and candidly, when I've succumbed to that number. It's when I've been overly excited. I didn't do my  diligence, or I did do my diligence, but I didn't care because I would just say this is a home run. No way this won't work. Nineteen months later, here we go. But what's your advice for on the candidate side when they're looking at these types of positions?

Amy Volas  09:46

Well as a recovering shiny-a-holic myself, which is what you just described.

Callan Harrington  09:50

100%

Amy Volas  09:51

It's the same darn thing. Slow it down. So I started this community last year called Better Together, because I started noticing common themes coming out of Thursday Night Sales, of career questions. And a big thing was, how do I know? And I find that especially in this market right now, where so many people are having to look for a job that otherwise wouldn't have chosen to, and out of that sort of fear place, or if you are working, and you get seduced out of the company, you know, whatever it might be, it's the stories that we hear. And they're not always rooted in reality for what's good for us. And I find that, especially after layoffs, people are in a fear based mode of: Oh, my gosh, I have to find a job right now. And they just are like: Okay, I'm going to dust off my resume, I'm going to send it out, I'm going to do this, I'm going to start networking. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. it's kind of like a loss, or any big change in life. It's kind of like buying a house. That's a really big commitment of time, of energy, you're gonna live there, you're gonna spend a lot of time there, you're gonna spend a lot of money on that. And it's a big life decision. Our careers are no different. And I find that people shoot from the hip. And it's like, it's kind of like what hiring managers do. I'll know what good looks like. And it's like, but do you even know what you do well? Do you even know how you did it? And the number one reason why people don't get invited back in the interview process for really good roles is they can't get specific about what, about how, about why, about the lessons learned. And the ability to connect those dots back to the "so what" factor for the person interviewing them? And so it's that same intentionality of thinking through: Well Wait, what just happened? And what - instead of the blame game, which is so prevalent - what just happened to me? What was my role in the story? When I went? What did I think it was going to be like? And and why did they choose to get rid of me? And what really were the outcomes? And what am I proud of? And what is the work that I really did that I feel good about? And then you realize, well, I never felt good here. I just went for the $20,000 extra in my base salary. And I didn't realize that I was potentially selling myself to the devil, and it didn't work out. And I feel really bad. But you know, what, two jobs ago, I should have never left, because they showed up for me. And growth is really important to me. And leadership is really important to me. The way I define leadership is: spending time with me to understand me instead of treating me like a cookie cutter, right? You know, I'm just giving examples. This may be everybody has a different thing that they value. But it's that slowdown in that moment, Callan, of understanding self. We have the answers. We just have to pay attention. And that's the thing.

Callan Harrington  12:41

I'm smiling, because the story you just described was my story to the T. The last round of layoffs for the company where it was most all the team I was part of. And that happened on a Friday. Monday morning at 4am, I just started emailing everybody in my network like crazy to start getting coffees. I couldn't like, I just had to jump right back into it. I gave myself absolutely no time to decompress whatsoever, and just started teeing up as many things I could possibly do, because it's all I knew how to do. And I don't think that those were necessarily the wrong tactics. But they sure as hell are at the wrong time. And it took me - you'll appreciate this. It took me going up to a remote place in northern Michigan for two straight weeks. No service, for me to snap out of it and go wait a minute. Because I was going right down the same path. I was going down, right down the same exact path that I had went down before. And then, once I actually took a step back, so what do you actually want? And some of the things you say: what are you good at? Where are you going? What kind of environment do you need to succeed? And then I got to that stage. And my stage at that time as an executive was to be at that series A stage scaling company, help them scale that up. And it happened and we exited that company pretty quickly. And- but had I not taken that time, and that I needed to, again I was forced into it. This wasn't something- I wasn't, to be clear for the listeners, this was not like, "I'm going to do this for this purpose." No, I just- it happened to work out. I happened to not have service, happened to have that time away. And it worked. I think that's such good advice.

Amy Volas  14:24

I hear about it all the time. It happens to me all the time. And I also have been that person, right. And it's just- one of the biggest mistakes I ever made in my career was I got seduced they caught me on a bad day, or a search firm caught me on a bad day, and I was in all of my feels. And I say this a lot. We all have emotions, right? But when the emotions jump in the front seat and start driving the car, we're in trouble. Our ego and emotions. That's not great. That's not when great decisions are made and all of a sudden, I ended up in an interview process. And I was in all the shiny objects. They would send me lovely gifts after every interview. I got a boxed Magnum bottle of my favorite bottle of champagne. I mean, it's like I was so enamored, and then they offered me the job. And it was $50,000 more in my base like, and I already had a really good base. And it's like, wait a second. And I remember on day one, I called my husband bawling. And I knew. And at that point, I vowed: what can I do to never have this happen again. And that's where this stuff comes up of listening to self of scorecards, of all the things. Because what I hear behind the scenes and what I see. And it happens in my InMails, every single day, multiple times a day, is somebody will say, "I just got laid off. Can you help me?" And my question will be, where do you need help? And the answer is, "I don't know. Can we just talk to network?" And it's a person that has nothing to do with any of the work that I do. And they didn't pay attention to anything that I talk about, that I do- I can't help them. So they're wasting their time, they're looking foolish, and they're wasting my time. That shuts doors, it doesn't open them. Versus you go on a magical mystery tour in northern Michigan, and you come out clear. I talk about my love of the Windex bottle. I have a little slight obsession with Windex. And one of the things I love about a Windex bottle is- I'm looking right now, we had some rain, and on my windows- I have a room that's like three walls of windows, and I can see the watermarks, and it bothers me. And so I want to just be like ssk, ssk, ssk with my little baby Windex bottle all over the place, just getting clear. Because as soon as I do, and I'm also a big bird lover, I have four bird feeders on the left hand side of me that I can see right now. I want to see them in a crystal clear way. When it's springtime, which it sort of is here in the Midwest, I want to see the trees bloom. I want that nature as I'm working my tail feather off. If my windows are dirty, I can't see it the same way. It's the same thing with us, right? So like, if my window is dirty into my own self, how on earth can I be clear for anybody else to be a powerful magnet of alignment? And the answer is: you can't.

Callan Harrington  17:08

Ah, that's so good, and it's so true. One of the things that- because I get asked- a lot of people ask me like, how do I get into consulting? How do you get your first clients in consulting? Right? And, and I tried to do consulting before I went out on my own. But I would always say something like, well, you know, I'm doing this at this company, and I'm thinking about doing some consulting on the side. That's not easy to refer to somebody. That's that easy for somebody to say, ", yeah, I'll put you in touch with this company and put my reputation on the line for something that you might be doing on the side or might be thinking about." But when I left, and I said, this is what I'm doing. I'm starting a consulting company. Here are the people that I'm helping. And this is what I'm looking for. It just makes it so much easier. Oh, yeah, I know that Sarah is the CRO at X company. So I think it'd be a perfect fit to just at least make an introduction for. I don't know if they can use your services or not. Exactly. It's exactly what you're looking for. But unless you have that, unless you have that crystal clear, you're putting all the work on somebody else, as opposed to doing the work, making it easy for them to help you. Is that essentially what I'm hearing?

Amy Volas  18:14

Help me help you. Let's go Jerry Maguire. Help me help you, all day long, right? And for those listening, they're like, who's Jerry Maguire. You know what, I can't help you right now with that. Besides making me feel real old and my age. But there is that whole thing of people want to help. I genuinely feel people are good natured. And when you take that, and you then consider how the world works. And let's say it's an executive, or let's say it's a business owner, or let's say it's whatever. These are people that have a lot of different competing priorities and have a lot of people coming their way. And if you make it difficult for me, and I have to pull teeth, you shut me down and turn me off. And that's the thing that I've said many times, if you want 15 minutes of my time, if you want my eyeballs and my attention, show me that you invested the same amount of time to get it.

Callan Harrington  19:09

I want to talk a little bit about your career. So you started out as a tech recruiter, is that correct?

Amy Volas  19:13

Yeah. Which I'm laughing because I just had a meeting today with a VC and we were talking. And I said, it's kind of like if you were to put me into a situation where you wanted me to code something, or it was like, or like UX design it, or whatever. And I just started laughing. I was like, I don't even know what I'm talking about. And yet somehow I started out as a tech recruiter, and I have no idea who that person is or was or how- I mean, I know how it happened, but oh my gosh, I can't even. I don't even identify with with young baby Amy. I have no idea who she was.

Callan Harrington  19:46

Did you move from tech recruiting to enterprise sales? Or did you start to recruit the go-to-market side before getting on the sales side? What did that look like?

Amy Volas  19:54

No. So, I got this job because I thought it was really cool. I'm just being super honest. Right? So I got this job because I thought it was really cool, because they had a fun interview process. I was 20-nothing, right? Like I was very, very young. I thought they had a cool interview process, they looked like they were having fun. I really enjoyed my conversations with them. And I wanted to be James Bond when I grew up. I studied Criminal Justice. And I realized that that was not going to be a career path for me. But I knew I got energy, and I got a big charge out of people. And so when you think about recruiting, regardless of the role, that has a lot to do with people, so I was like, sure, I can do that. And so here's this company with good people, fun people. This was before the word "startup" was used. But this was what it was, was a startup. And they were called "dot-coms" at the time. And what I was recruiting for was, or were technical roles inside of really big global enterprise accounts. And so then 9-11 hit, and there was my first recession, and I survived a bunch of layoffs. And I loved- it wasn't just that I liked the company- I loved the people. Some of my best friends to this day came from that, from that experience. And so, we all would have- we were bleeding the blood, right? We all would have just walked through fire for each other, and for this, this founder. And I learned some really big lessons that I carry with me to this day. We put all of our eggs in about one giant basket. 98% of the business was in this one account. And all of a sudden, that account just got slashed and kept getting slashed, and the business was hemorrhaging. And enterprise sales, when I say how long it takes, it takes a long time. And it's not just because all of a sudden you just have this account that's getting slashed, and you shake the pipeline train out come these opportunities. And so I had survived all these layoffs. I was out in Denver, which is where the company was based, I was in a satellite office in Chicago. And I remember sitting down with the founder, and he was like, "we love you, you've survived some layoffs, look around." And  I'm like, it's like a Ricola commercial. It's like Rii-co-laa. Like there was just an echo. And he was like, we don't want to lose you. But there is nothing to recruit for. And the only thing that's gonna get us through this is if we sell something, and I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how it's going to happen. But we need you to get in. And it's not that these were bad people. It's that we had no more money, we had no more resources. I had to go trial by fire. And I remember, back in the office in Chicago, there was this grassy knoll in front of the building that I worked in, and I would just read every sales book, and I'd try whatever, and I would screw it up. And then I would do okay. And then I'd have meetings, and I'd talk too much, and I wasn't listening. And you know all this stuff. And I was like, I don't want to be anywhere else but here. Like, and then I'd got bitten by the bug, even though I was failing, the company was failing. Ultimately, the company went under. And then where I landed, was an enterprise sales role with remarkable leadership. My mentor, my boss, a dear friend, my very first business partner in 2008, of the first company that I started, that's where Darren entered my life. And my world changed, and I mastered my craft, and the rest is history.

Callan Harrington  23:27

So you were in this situation ,you were recruiting. Sounds like you enjoyed recruiting, but you really liked the company that you were with. And the layoffs happened, you're still there, nobody to recruit for, so you had to go out and sell and this was your first transition into going from a recruiter to then going into enterprise sales. Is that right? .

Amy Volas  23:47

Yeah. And like enterprise sales at the time was all these telecommunication companies. So AT&T, MCI- which isn't even a company anymore. I mean, like these big, big, big companies andbeing like, "Oh, sure, I can save the company in six weeks." And like, no.

Callan Harrington  24:01

That's a standard sales cycle for enterprise sales is six weeks. So that makes total sense.

Amy Volas  24:07

And in the middle of a major recession, right? So, it's like, all of the things that we're talking about today, were all the things that we were talking about before. Being multithreaded, having the CFO really drive the deal, whether it's going to happen or not. You can have meetings with lots of people that like you, but if you can't connect the dots, good luck. All that stuff, right? So yeah, yeah, that was my life.

Callan Harrington  24:28

That's so funny. When I made the transition to enterprise sales from B to C. I read the book- I had no idea what I was doing. I read the book, How To Master the Art of Tradeshow Marketing. B2B tradeshow marketing, because I've never been to a conference before. I did exactly what it said in the book. The book said don't eat the entire time that you're at the booth. I was at that booth for seven hours. Didn't eat the whole time, because I was too afraid. Didn't sit behind the booth, stood in front of the booth, cut everybody off in line, so they had to talk to me. So, I definitely can empathize with that, and I think that's awesome. How much did it change? How much did your career trajectory change, when you had a good leader that could coach and develop you at this new role?

Amy Volas  25:10

Exponentially. I haven't quantified it in a percentage, but put it this way, within nine months at that company, I was carrying 60% of the company's revenue in my back pocket. And I could not have done it without him.

Callan Harrington  25:22

What were some of those things that led to that for you? What were some of those, those changes that once you made this, that everything just kind of clicked into place.

Amy Volas  25:31

Long game versus short game. I mean, I've always been a long game gal. I've always loved my relationships. I won't compromise those just to turn a buck. That's never been me; that will never be me. But I think it was the long game understanding, you have to celebrate the small wins to get to the big ones. And the big thing- one of Darren's superpowers, truly a superpower, and I talk him this day about these things, to this day- is he has this uncanny ability to see what's happening, and to stop and think, and consider all of the other things around that one particular item, and then map out a strategy. And when all is said and done, be like 98% right. It's insane, it is a superpower in the most magnificent way. And what he taught me was: slow down, think, think outside of just what you want to accomplish, put yourself in the other person's shoes. And that strategic thinking cap of if you're going to go into this business and deal with these C-level folk and these fortune 500 companies, you will get eaten alive. Like what you did before, that's all well and good. You could get meetings because people liked you, but at the end of the day, you didn't close any deals because of this. And he got me thinking about the power of understanding, the power of curiosity. I've always been curious, but how to actually unlock that, and show up in a meeting, to have a business conversation, not just an objection handling. So I don't want to listen for what I want to hear, I actually just want to listen to understand. And if I'm really listening, I'll be able to weave in how I can actually help at the right time, when they're open to receiving it, versus shu- Thank goodness I was selling a service, because there was no product to feature dump and hope that something would stick. And so Darren's ability to tell a story, and to show me how. I mean those are, these are all just things that I've carried with me through the years, I also grew up, it was full-cycle.I had to do everything, and he demanded that. And I am so grateful because I understand the buyer journey from soup to nuts. And then I also had to worry about expansion, retention, delivery, all of these different things that have made me not just a better seller, a better leader, but also a better entrepreneur and business owner. So in markets like this, when I'm sharing my thoughts, whether it be on a podcast or on a written piece of content, it's like, these are lessons that I've learned, these are lessons that have worked in the best of markets and in the worst of markets. And there's a reason why I pay that forward is because it changed my life. Even it bled over into my personal life too; it made me a better human.

Callan Harrington  28:26

I was just going to ask, what ways did it change your life?

Amy Volas  28:28

Connecting with people on a deeper level. I am not a surface dweller, like anybody that really knows me knows, I want to get down and dirty way below, I don't want to stick with the surface, I just don't, I can spend my time with a lot of different people, we all can. And the older I get, the more rigid I am about this particular thing. Time goes by like this. And time is a priceless currency that you can't get back once you spend it. And I want to spend it with people that are willing to go to that level to understand, because that's where good business is done. Even if there are mistakes made, even if I make a mistake, even whatever might be happening good, bad or indifferent. It's that understanding of the route, or trying to understand the route together, that then achieves alignment. And when you're aligned, you stick together. When you're not it's a messy mess, that you tend to not. So that's the thing. That's like the biggest thing.

Callan Harrington  29:25

I think the pandemic expedited that kind of thought process to a lot of people, right? You just saw, I think you just- because you were so limited in everything, that it's just- what actually matters? And I'm not surprised you saw a ton of career changers. I think you saw a lot of people- I think a lot of people's friend groups shrunk as a result of the pandemic, and investing more time into fewer things that really matter. Whether that's your work life, career, friends, whatever that may be. Friends, family, whatever that is. So, one of the areas I want to fast forward to is- So I know you had founded a company. But then you went back into enterprise sales, as you mentioned, the timing and things like that, it was tough to do. But you were very successful in enterprise sales. And you mentioned that you love the work. You knew instantly, when you moved over here, even when everything was going bad, was like a great sign. If everything is on fire around it, and you're like, oh, this is still cool. Like such a good sign that this is probably what you should be doing. Why found a company at all?

Amy Volas  30:26

I think for me, it is imprinted in my DNA. I come from a long line of entrepreneurial minded or straight up entrepreneurs themselves. And a long line of sales folk, even though I cringed at the idea of sales growing up. But specifically my grandfather. He had an eighth grade education, he was a depression baby, he was a World War Two fighter pilot, and he was a titan of his industry, and had companies that did remarkable things, and had companies that were doing remarkable things and didn't work out for him. And he always landed on his feet, or that's what it looked like, right? And up until the end, even, you know, at the very end, when he retired, he couldn't stop working like he had to do this. And I feel like I have that, by the way. But even though he had a local business, it wasn't like this fortune company that he had had before. He still was amazing. And he still affected people. And I just remember being so enamored, and growing up when he was in his prime, being at dinners and I could ask to be excused and go play with the other kids. But I would sit at the table and just like, watch, and be really interested in what are these business people talking about? Or his friends. They weren't even business people to me, but they were his friends. And they were doing business and going and visiting him in the office and playing office. I mean, I still have an obsession with office supplies. So Windex and office supplies, there you go. And, I'm a sucker for a good plan. And you know, it's just like, it's that kind of thing. And I think it was just, if that's like, one of my biggest things that I think about every day, is I wish my grandfather were here. So I could talk to him about this, because I would love his opinion, because he was the thing of you can do business without being a butthead, and be really successful without cutting corners. And I mean that that was the case, when he passed away, he had over 450 people that came to his funeral. I still go home, and if people realize that that's my grandfather, and they knew him, they gush over, you could have spent two seconds with him and he would have made you feel seen, heard, understood, valued and validated. And that is like in my core. So when I think about why I do this, I quite frankly got sick of doing it for everybody else, and I wanted to bet on myself. And there's something really beautiful about- because at some point, when you work for someone else, and I am okay with the fact that so many people enjoy working for other people. I have too, and look, you got to go with what's right for you. But for me, there is a part of me that realizes,because I'm a startup gal, that you can do that for a period of time, and then you get to the next rung on the ladder, right? And things start changing. And it makes sense they have to. It's how you achieve growth. It's how you achieve scale. But I found that at the time, the more we went up the next rung on the ladder, the more we lost sight of what was important, and that was the customer. And for me, I will refuse to compromise on that. I refuse to compromise on outcomes and experiences and delivery. And I wanted to do it my way that I had learned. I had messed up a lot, I had learned a lot. And I had mastered a few things really, really well that I knew I could bottle up and do, that would affect business in a meaningful way. And that, as scary as it was, and it totally was scary. You could bring my husband on right now, and he'd be like, "Oh my gosh, she was totally crying." Yes, I was sure was lots of tears. I was scared out of my gourd. But that fear also propelled me forward. And truly, I couldn't and cannot imagine me doing anything else. I feel like this is my life's work, that this is what I was meant to do. I had to learn all the lessons, I had to do all the things. And in 2008 I had to split off from Darren, who is this like, great person in my life. But we did it with integrity. We did it with grace, we did it with transparency, and he is still in my life to this day. And I knew even after that, having to eat crow and go back to work at Yahoo. And that was a gift by the way, to be able to go back in a recession with an open door. That was a gift. But even that, I just knew I was like yeah, I'm gonna do it again.

Callan Harrington  34:52

Yeah.

Amy Volas  34:52

And I mean, it was hard. I was getting my rear end handed to me, but I was like, okay, I have to learn some lessons. I have to recover, I have to breathe Yes, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it again. And then in 2015 I did it again.

Callan Harrington  35:04

What was the hardest lesson that you had to learn the second time? Meaning, what was the hill that you needed to get over? To make this business work? 

Amy Volas  35:16

That I was worthy to do it.

Callan Harrington  35:18

What do you mean by that specifically?

Amy Volas  35:20

So, comparison is the thief of joy, as they say. And I think when you are trying to figure out, should I stay? Should I go? Should I do it? Should I not? Should I? It's like that constant ping pong match. And that's why I love a journal. But I mean, there's many reasons why I love a journal. But that's one of them is trying to reconcile those answers. And by the way, nobody else has that answer but you. You can have plenty people with plenty of opinions that are very well intentioned, that care about you, but they don't know what's right for you, because they don't live in your skin and do the thing every day like you do. And so, for me, what I mean by that is, I would look out, like I would peek out a little bit, just like a little baby peek. And I would see, and then I quickly go back in and be like, but I'm not like that person. I don't know what they know, I don't look like that. I don't act like that. I don't talk like that, I don't- I haven't mastered that, I'm not- And it's like all of those limiting self-beliefs of looking out and comparing when it was like, wait a second, I started my company when I was 40. I learned a lot up to that point. And I luckily have a very, very supportive husband, that's like, but you have this. And you know that. And there's this. And it was- Thank goodness. And then thinking about the juxtaposition between all of that, and writing it down, and getting clear of like, oh. And giving myself permission to try. And even though I was still crying, and I was still scared out of my gourd, it literally was being comfortable and confident in I've mastered this, and this is something that people need, and I've addressed a gap. And I have a solution. And it will work because I've proven it before. And I remember the first day that I quote unquote, started the company, my husband's like, "so, happy first day." I'm like, "huh!"  Like freaking out.

Callan Harrington  37:10

Yeah.

Amy Volas  37:11

And literally, he was like, "what's the worst thing that can happen? You go and you get another sales job." And he's like, "just give it six months." And six months flew by, and I had customers, and I was happy, and I felt like this is exactly what. So I never turned back. But it was that one, just step.  Of getting over that self talk that was holding me back, quite frankly.

Callan Harrington  37:27

Yeah. That self reflection. So, if I'm if I'm hearing you, it was you needed to prove to yourself that you are good enough and worthy to be able to do this. Everybody else could probably tell you all day, you've been super successful in all these things that you did. But you didn't believe that at that time. And when you started to go, if I heard you correctly, when you started to write it down and do the journaling exercises, and really kind of cleared your head of all the other stuff. What was at the core, the root is: wait, wait, I can do this. I have proven this, I am the person to do this. Is that right?

Amy Volas  38:07

Yeah, it was reframing my brain into what I could do versus why I shouldn't or why I couldn't or what I didn't know. And it's like, I have to have a website. I don't know how to do website, where do I go? What do I do? It's like, you'll figure it out, you know. And the website doesn't matter. What matters is what I'm here to do. And can I do that. And so it was training me to just think in a different way because I can go- So ,this is the blessing and the curse of the lesson that Darren taught me, right? I can go eighty ways to Sunday to look at something and be like, oh, there's a gap, there's a gap, there's a gap, there's a gap. And because of those gaps, that's not going to be good. Versus thinking about the other 80%. That is good. I'm getting caught up on the 20. Yeah, well, I had to flip that. And I talk about this a lot. Our mindset equals the actions we take, equals the outcomes we realize. And I'm sure I could have continued to have a successful sales career. And that's awesome. And that certainly would have filled my cup, but not in the same way. And so when I think about why I'm doing what I'm doing, and this is a big thing for me, I'm a huge, huge, huge into Simon Sinek, and I do believe that it does start with why. I just had to get clear on that because for a long time I was just kind of like dangling in the wind. Like it's like if you see a sailboat, and there's no wind and just sort of like that sail is just like tink, tink, tink, tink. That's how I felt. And then as soon as I found the wind, and I was sailing again, my mast was- I don't even know, I'm not even a sailor, you know what I'm saying? But you know, it's like, wheels up. Good. We're tacking and whatever else we're doing.

Callan Harrington  39:46

What comes next?

Amy Volas  39:48

You know, you are like the fifth person this week that has asked me this. I am very, very satisfied. And my cup is very, very full with what it is that I'm doing. And so recently We announced the end of Thursday night sales so that I could, and Scott could, focus on the things that we want to do next. And for me, it's doubling down on Avenue Talent Partners and the executive search that we do. But we just launched a new line of business called The Studio, that helps founders understand what I know when they don't need what I do with executive search, and one on one coaching to help them build recruiting frameworks for themselves. And then there's the Better Together community. So all of those things are congruent. And I can hold them in my hand and continue to grow that and feel really good about that. Because it all has to do with kind of the same stuff. And I'm writing a book. So, I think that will open up a whole plethora of other things that I haven't even thought of. But right now, my plate's really full on that. And I'm super satisfied. And I'm really proud, and I wouldn't have it any other way. So that's what's next. That's what's happening.

Callan Harrington  40:53

I love it. I love it. If you could have a conversation with your younger self, age totally up to you. What would that conversation be? And what advice would you give them?

Amy Volas  41:03

I would tell my- this is a good question- I would tell my younger self, that you should probably find a therapist a lot earlier, because having a safe space when nobody else knows you. And there's no other influence or hidden forces, that that would be really good. Because my parents got divorced when I was young. That certainly affected me. And I wish I would have handled my stuff a lot earlier, because all the stuff is interconnected. And so I would have gone to younger Amy and said, it's not taboo, you have permission to do that. Go ahead and do that. And that would have unlocked a lot of clarity for me later on that I had to learn kind of like in my 30s. That was not fun. So that's what I would say, is show up for yourself. And it's okay to do that, and asking for help that way, there's no shame in that game. Because I used to think asking for help was a sign of weakness. And it was a bad thing. And by the way, I still to this day have a really hard time asking for help. And I wish I would have gone back and told myself at that time. It's okay to ask for help and to learn how to do that without feeling shame or embarrassment or whatever it might be. So, we got real deep on the end here. There you go.

Callan Harrington  42:18

I 100% agree with every single thing that you just said, for what it's worth. So Amy, this was a blast. Thanks for coming on. I had so much fun on this.

Amy Volas  42:29

It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. And for anybody that listens to this, I hope it's helpful and Callum, this was a treat. So thank you, truly.

Callan Harrington  42:36

Absolutely.