Katie Hill - Founder & CEO of UNLISTED: Funding Methods for Your Startup, Starting with a Business Model, and The Power of Persistence

Katie Hill  00:00

A way to get people to listen to us and to give us more attention than maybe they would have otherwise was just by treating them like really important clients, which is exactly what they were. But they just hadn't been treated like that.

Callan Harrington  00:10

You're listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that lead to their success. I'm your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn't be more excited that you're here. Welcome back, everyone to another episode of That Worked. This week's guest, I'm joined by Katie Hill, Katie is the founder and CEO of UNLISTED, and UNLISTED allows real estate agents and homebuyers to express interest in off market properties. They do this through their easy to use technology. And if you've ever tried to get off market properties, you know how challenging that process is. Katie is a two time founder, and has seen a ton of success in her career. Prior to founding UNLISTED , she founded the company CommuterAds, which has seen a ton of success in its own right. In this episode, we dive into a number of different topics. We talk about the importance of starting a company with a business model. This is a lesson that I personally had to learn the hard way, we discussed going above and beyond for your clients. And in particular, a process for anticipating your client's needs. One of the underlying themes throughout the episode was persistence. Katie is persistent. And her story of landing the founder of KAYAK as an investor at her newest startup is both fantastic, and a great example of her persistence, and the power of persistence in general. So with that, let's get to the show. Katie, thanks for coming on the show.

Katie Hill  02:09

Thank you so much for having me.

Callan Harrington  02:10

So tell us a little bit about UNLISTED .

Katie Hill  02:12

Great, so yeah, UNLISTED. It's unlistedhomes.com. It's a proptech startup, we launched our MVP exactly a year ago.

Callan Harrington  02:19

On  St. Patrick's Day?

Katie Hill  02:20

It was St. Patrick's Day.

Callan Harrington  02:21

Was that on purpsose?

Katie Hill  02:21

By design, yeah. I have a little Irish heritage. And so it felt like a great day to go ahead and launch an MVP. And so what it is, is, the idea is, we like to say about unlistedhomes.com, it's where off market is no longer off limits. The idea is that homebuyers who are looking for a house can search on our platform, every single house that exists. So not necessarily what's listed for sale, but every single property, and then they can use our platform to draft a note to the homeowner of those off market properties, explaining to them why they liked that house and what their timeline to move might be. And then we package these notes up into these care packages. They're like gold, sparkly envelopes that go out with cookies, or chocolate, or brownies, and these personalized letters to the homeowners. So the idea is that they're really eye catching, and there's something sweet inside. And then along with this personalized letter, plus, the technology generates an invitation code, which allows the homeowner to come back to the platform, enter that code, and then they're connected directly with that buyer. And the two parties can chat inside the platform about what their property plans maybe without ever having to exchange information, personal information, but sort of see if there might be a real estate deal to be had or not. And so that's the idea.

Callan Harrington  03:38

Okay, I've got a bunch of questions, because I'm super interested. Is the customer that investor that's looking to do that? Or is it also the person that's like, I want to be in this neighborhood? Because it sounds like it's a great service for both from what you just described?

Katie Hill  03:52

Yeah, we're still figuring that out, to be honest with you. So for sure, one of our customers is just your average everyday residential buyer who has been squeezed in the last couple of years as inventory is at a record low levels. And, you know, they get outbid time and time again, there's multiple offers. So you know, looking for creative solutions for those kinds of buyers. But then the other thing that I'll say is that we've engaged real estate agents in a really interesting way. So the idea here really was never to cut agents out of it, which everybody sort of assumed. Because there's there's been a lot of proptech startups that have attempted that, but I always kind of knew that a good way to monetize a connection between a buyer and seller would be to sell those leads to agents, assuming that the buyer and seller both agree that they wanted to be connected to an agent. And if that was the case, that there would be value to be created by connecting them with the real estate agent. And what ended up happening as I was pursuing that path is the agents liked what we were doing so much with the technology and the care packages, that they were like, "well, yeah, I'll buy your leads, but would you also send those mailers on behalf of my buyers? I have dozens of buyers who can't find properties. I'm sort of at my wit's end. I don't know what else to do with them. This is an interesting solution." So now they subscribe to my platform. And we send letters out on behalf of their buyers. And then we disclose to the homeowner that there's an agent involved.

Callan Harrington  05:09

Interesting. So, is that your primary customer, is the real estate agent?

Katie Hill  05:13

Currently. Yep.

Callan Harrington  05:14

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's got to be a pretty forward-thinking real estate agent. Is that right?

Katie Hill  05:19

It is, yes. And we're working mostly with brokers at a bigger level where they have teams, they have lots of agents working for them. Those are the folks who are really seeing the value of it, because they're always- I think they're just a little more like, outside of the day to day. And they're thinking about, like, where's the brokerage going, and they're trying to make sure that they're on the cutting edge. And they see that this is a way that all of their agents can benefit. And so we've really been focused on either team leads or brokers.

Callan Harrington  05:19

Gotcha. Okay, I want to circle back to this. Where'd your career start?

Katie Hill  05:30

Actually, you know, I don't have any entrepreneurs in my family. But in retrospect, like I probably am an entrepreneur at heart, my very first job out of college was a startup, which it wasn't called a startup at the time. I didn't know anything about entrepreneurship. But it was an idea around gift cards. This was when gift cards were kind of new, and a roommate and I were working on this idea to put all of the little like stores that were in our downtown campus town, put them on one card. And then so that students who go from like the bookstore to, there was actually a video store, to the local coffee shop. And they could use the same gift card at these multiple locations, and their parents could like load them up. I went to school in central Illinois, and so most of the students there were either from St. Louis or Chicago. And so their parents were- and the money, by default- were remote. And so the idea with the gift card is the parents could load it up. And then the kids could spend the money at these little shops. And so we got a little bit of traction, and we had a couple stores sign up with us. I said I would give myself one year after graduation to pursue that. I took a job at a bank, and then worked on this on the side and said, you know, if it doesn't work in a year, then I'll go get like a real job. I'm air quoting "real job." It was about eight months into this venture that I realized we actually had no business model, like there was no way the business was ever going to make money. It was a cool idea. It was a lovely little concept. But it wasn't a moneymaker. You know, there was no way it was ever gonna pay the bills, my friend, and I kind of wrapped it up pretty quickly after we realized that, and I went and got a a corporate job. But that was such a huge lesson for me. Because now in my own startups, and when I work with other startups, I always start with a business model, like we whip out the spreadsheets first and foremost, and just make sure that there's some sense of a way that this thing is going to make money. Because it's amazing how easy it is to get wrapped up in the idea and forget that if you want it to pay the bills, you have to have some sort of path to that.

Callan Harrington  07:45

Especially when you get feedback from people where it's, "oh, that's genius. No, you got to do that. That is genius!" And then you do a model, and you're like, this will never work. This doesn't make any sense at all.

Katie Hill  07:57

Exactly right!

Callan Harrington  07:58

You jumped right to it, but I was gonna ask like, how big of an impact did that have on your future businesses? You just talked on it. But like, I have to assume that was gigantic.

Katie Hill  08:06

It was huge. It was huge. And it was a perfect example of one of those things like where it's a failure. But there's so many lessons there, you know, and it really did. I was never like horribly disappointed about it. But I was just like, Oh, that was dumb. You know, that was that was not the way to do that. And like I said, now I- the very first thing I ask pretty much anybody is, you know, what's the business model? Like? How does it work? How does it scale? And sitting down and thinking about that is really a fun exercise. Sometimes it feels like that's not- that's the finance part is something that a lot of people just want to avoid, I feel like, because it feels like this big black box. But so that's my- the I would say like, the main way that I work with entrepreneurs is we just sit down next to each other in a coffee shop, and it takes 90 minutes. And usually we start with a brand new fresh spreadsheet. I think it's hard to find a worksheet or, you know, some kind of thing that you can plug yourself into, as much as that would be nice. We generally just start from scratch. And they've kind of talked through their business, and we start plugging numbers into a spreadsheet and just see what happens. I think people oftentimes find that pretty empowering, once they realize like, it's not that hard, first of all. And second of all, like there is a path to something interesting, or if there's not better to figure that out now, then twelve months from now.

Callan Harrington  09:20

It's such great advice. I think the one for me, was- that really set in stone was, once I got to that point where I started building regular business models. What I wasn't doing right, I was just building P&Ls. I wasn't building a cash flow forecast. What is your thoughts on that- on as you're building a model on a P&L versus a cash flow? Do you get in that granular when you're- when you're kind of building these initial models?

Katie Hill  09:43

Yeah, we often do. Or we usually start with a P&L just to see that there's some sort of general sense of some path to profitability. But then usually there that's the next question. It's like, okay, how would this work? When would you have to invest in inventory? How long would it take you to sell? How long it's going to take you to collect? What is your sales cycle? What do we think it's gonna be? It's always two or three or five times longer than we think it's going to be.

Callan Harrington  10:04

Always.

Katie Hill  10:04

Right?

Callan Harrington  10:04

 One thousand percent!

Katie Hill  10:05

Yeah, so just kind of making sure that we ask those questions, and think through that as much as we can, you know? You know, as much in advance as we possibly can. I know, like, there's no way to know everything that's going to happen, but at least sort of trying to put something down on paper. And then what I tell my clients is that- and then that's kind of your goal. Now we've set sales goals. That's not just a number on the top line of a spreadsheet. That's like what you have to go get. And then when you spend your money, you need to spend it also in this realm. Generally, that's the goal. And like, if we need to tweak it and adjust it as we start to learn more, we absolutely will. But like, at least we have something that we're shooting for.

Callan Harrington  10:15

One hundred percent. I think that's such good advice. So you went to a corporate job? Was this Leo Burnett?  What was that like?

Katie Hill  10:44

Yes.  That was amazing.

Callan Harrington  10:46

How did you get that job, as well?

Katie Hill  10:48

That's a funny story. The reason why I wanted to work at Leo Burnett, is because a girl that I thought was cool in college, who is a couple years older than me, said she wanted to work at Leo Burnett. So then I went to work at Leo Burnett. And I don't think she ever did go work there. But once I had made that shift in my mind that I wasn't going to do that initial startup, and I was gonna go get a corporate job, like the only place I wanted to work was Burnett. And so- but Burnett did not recruit out of the school where I did my undergrad. I didn't have any advertising or PR, or marketing experience, really. But I sent my resume anyways. And I worked my way through the phone system there to get myself to HR. I think the best I could do was call the like main line, and just asked for HR, I think, and they connected me. I don't remember exactly how that worked. But I know I had to work through the phone system. And eventually I did find my way to the person who had my resume on her desk. And she sort of right away managed my expectations, like thank you so much for submitting. But you know, we don't really have any openings right now. And I know there was something posted, but that one's been filled. And I was like, okay, well, you know, can I call back in a couple months or whatever, and just see where things stand. And I got her phone number then at that point. I asked her for her number, and she did give it to me. And then I just checked back with her probably every three weeks or so.

Callan Harrington  12:07

 For how long?

Katie Hill  12:08

At least three or four months. And we sort of ended up forming a little bit of a relationship. I ended up knowing a little bit about what was going on with her niece and nephew. And she knew that I was in central Illinois, you know, hoping to get back up to the big city, And eventually, you know, it was like I was calling and it was no news, and calling and there was no news, and we're chit chatting. And then one day I got a call from her. And by then, you know, she was calling me Kate. "Kate, guess what? You know, something's opened up. I'm gonna, you know, line you up for a phone interview." And so that was like how I kind of got my my break there, I guess. I did the phone interviews. And then they brought me in for the in person interviews, which was the- it was one of these like, round robins. I think you were there for like five hours. And you did back to back to back. And I got the offer pretty quickly after that, which was really exciting. And what was interesting about it was that I did have a degree in marketing. But the thing that actually got me that job, my first job, was in response management, in database and direct marketing. And the thing that got me the job was I had worked as a research assistant for a professor on campus. And I knew how to use SPSS.

Callan Harrington  13:11

What is SPSS?

Katie Hill  13:12

It's like a little, like database system that we did all of our research. Like I was- I would basically key in data, you know,  for this research that they were doing. It was research on principals in the state of Illinois. I went to Illinois State, and that's a big teacher school. So it was this database experience that I had that made them interested in me for a database and direct marketing. It wasn't advertising, you know, or marketing background. So I thought that that was an interesting lesson. And like you never know what experiences you have that might end up being relevant to the roles that you ultimately want. I'm like grateful. That was Dr. Baker, he was the professor I worked for. And it turned out it was all the hours in his office that really got me my first job than anything having to do with my degree.

Callan Harrington  13:54

It's one of those things that comes up quite a bit. And it's interesting, because the knowledge that you have that you think is throwaway knowledge, right? Let's just call it throwaway knowledge. It's a term I just coined: "throwaway knowledge" that it's like, oh, no, but like everybody knows this. Like this is- like this is super common stuff. Why would they care about this? And that's exactly what people want. I had a post on LinkedIn that I said something along the lines of, you know, I always hire in pairs because it helps somebody. I was like, this is just like everybody knows this. But I'll put it out there because I think it's cool. Blew up. And I just couldn't- it did better than any of these posts that I put like, two hours into creating. So you got to Leo Burnett. What was it like?

Katie Hill  14:37

That was an incredible job. The training was world class. I mean, we were on really big giant multimillion dollar multinational accounts. As I recall, I think I was on the -they used to call it the bench, for I think it was six months, like before they would even let you talk to a client. And they taught you how to answer the phone, and how to write an email, and kind of the expectations and response times, and just really world class client service. And that has stuck with me. So now it's just my MO now, you know? It's just one of the biggest things that has served me so well, is what they really taught us how to do was anticipate the client's needs. So you know, you get a question from a client in an email. And not only do you make sure, one- that you answer that question. But you also think about, like, what are they really asking? Or what are they, you know, why are they asking this? And like, what other information or what other support can we give them to help them get to like, where we think that they're going? That is powerful stuff, when you can start to understand that, and when you see someone do that for you, you know, like, what a huge difference it makes. When you can do that for other people, it just puts you lightyears ahead, from a client service standpoint.

Callan Harrington  15:43

How do you do that? What's kind of the process for figuring that out?

Katie Hill  15:46

I think it's about being able to put yourself in the client's shoes, and it gets easier and easier, the more you know the business. You know, like, you can sort of start to understand the dynamics. You know who was asking the question of them, and why they're asking, and where it's going. But I think it's just- some of it is just taking a second and reading it, or listening to the question carefully. And then just thinking about, like, why are they asking this? Or what are they looking for, really? And if we just sort of shoot something back quickly and don't put much thought into it, then it's going to be fine, you're gonna have done the job. But I think it's just taking that extra second to put yourself in their shoes, that really can make a huge difference in the way that you respond and the way that you make them feel about the work that you're doing for them and sort of confidence, you're instilling in your ability. I mean, we're an agency, they're hiring you to be experts in something. And so being able to demonstrate that, like, I know what you're asking, and I know what you're asking, and I'm gonna give you the next three things that I know that you need. That's what an agency is supposed to do, in my mind, and I think that's what we were taught.

Callan Harrington  16:47

I think it's a great point. How has that helped you in your company today? It's not an agency, but more of a software company.

Katie Hill  16:53

Which I think I treat now everything like an agency. I mean, like, you know, we all have clients to serve, they can all go work with anybody else. So like, now I kind of think of, whether it's homebuyers or real estate agents, as my clients. And there's a million other marketing services that they can use. There's a million software platforms they can use. What am I giving them that's making them feel seen and heard, and really getting them the solutions that they're looking for? And I remember, like a place where it was really noticeable for me was- I might be jumping ahead a little bit here, but I went to a startup after Leo Burnett called CommuterAds. And that was a company focused on public transit. So suddenly, I was working with the public sector. And all I was doing for them was the same thing as I had been trained as sort of just natural at Burnett, in a highly competitive, high stakes, private sector position. And I just sort of applied those same things without even thinking about it in this public sector that was not as client focused. And we were just knocking their socks off. It hadn't dawned on me before that that like, oh, not everybody does this. Not everybody thinks about clients in the same way. Not everybody responds to things in the same way. And for a brand new idea that was really opening eyes to like, that was another sort of unknown concept, that sort of a way to get people to listen to us. And to give us more attention than maybe they would have otherwise was just by treating them like really important clients, which is exactly what they were. But they just hadn't been treated like that.

Callan Harrington  18:23

I spent some time in the agency space as well. And I think one of the- that is such a big one, like over servicing your clients. And then especially the early stages of a startup. The early stages of a startup, you have to because your product is just not going to be there. Their product or service really isn't going to be there. The only thing that is going to be there is how do you show up for these? And then the other one for me was the level of detail that you put into whatever that presentation, anything that's going in front of the client has to look good. And it's dotting the i's crossing the t's. The level of design. Appreciation for design is probably what I'm getting at. Did you find that as well, just out of curiosity, like the standard that was acceptable on that?

Katie Hill  19:05

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was a world class creative agency at Burnett. So everything we did was beautiful. Now I personally am not a graphic designer, you know, but I definitely have an eye for it. And so, sort of understanding the difference between a really great looking deck, versus somebody took the template and threw some new words on, you know, black letters on a white background or whatever. I mean, yeah, you're like, you're just not going to get the same attention that you're gonna get if it looks like the company knows what it's doing.

Callan Harrington  19:34

Yep, I know exactly what you're saying. I'm not a designer. They tried to give me InDesign one time. They're like "okay, we're gonna have you build the decks in InDesign." And I was like, "well, you might as well return this license because there's no shot I'm gonna figure this one out." That lasted all but five hours.

Katie Hill  19:48

Yeah, my design skills are still terrible. But luckily, I now have amazing colleagues who have been with me now for a couple of these startups, who- we almost can just look at each other and say like, yeah, we know what this should look like. And they can bring it to life, which is such an awesome way to work together.

Callan Harrington  20:06

One hundred percent. So you founded CommuterAds, correct?

Katie Hill  20:09

Yes, I did. There were two of us. Yep.

Callan Harrington  20:11

How was it going from Leo Burnett to founding another company?

Katie Hill  20:14

It was really exciting. So CommuterAds was location based advertising on public transit. Still is- it's still a thriving company. Location based ads on public transit. So the idea is as a bus drives past a Dunkin Donuts, we can trigger a message inside the bus that says, "Hey, did you know there's a Dunkin Donuts at the next stop? Hop off, grab a coffee, and then the next bus will be along in seven minutes," or whatever. And that's a cool business model because- so the way that it works is the advertisers would pay CommuterAds, and CommuterAds had contracts with the public transit authorities that that we then rev shared with them. So they gave us access to their systems. And then we, in turn, went and generated revenue for them. There was a business model there. There's a great business model there. So yeah, that came together- you know, I probably worked on that for a year or so, again, on the side, until then, when it was finally ready to make that leap. By that time, you're just dying, right? And so I left Leo Burnett with the fondest memories, and the best feelings about everybody there. I still am in touch with, my EVP of that department was a huge influence on me. Lisa Gillis. We're still in touch. She's been supporting me on my latest startup. She was encouraging of me, even then, when I left, she was just a mentor and a guide. And I took so much of the stuff that I saw her do and brought it to that startup. And to this day now have carried it forward in a lot of the things that I do so yeah, that was really formative.

Callan Harrington  21:37

What were some of the big challenges that you ran up against at CommuterAds?

Katie Hill  21:42

Gosh, the biggest one probably was venture capital, if I'm being totally honest. We did end up getting VC, and that was tougher than I had expected, which probably sounds really naive. Because I guess now I'd say like, who takes venture capital and doesn't think it's going to be tough. But in retrospect, I don't know that we would take that funding again.

Callan Harrington  22:01

Why is that?

Katie Hill  22:02

Oh, gosh, it brought like a whole different- I would say that we would do our diligence on the VC as hard as they did the diligence on us. This is a very close business relationship that ends up coming together. And so if you're not 100%, certain of who you're working with, I would say that you could be setting yourself up for misaligned expectations. And the money is like so exciting, especially when the business is starting to take off. And you think about, as they say, putting jet fuel on it. It's really, really hard, I think to resist that. But you have to understand that that money comes with folks that may not have the same culture as you, may not have the same values as you, may not see, you know, have the same vision for the business as you do. And so I would say like as much as you can, but for the benefit of everybody involved, figure that out well in advance. I think that that's probably really important.

Callan Harrington  23:02

Did you raise capital with your current company?

Katie Hill  23:04

I did. So far it's all been angels; no institutional funds yet.

Callan Harrington  23:08

Gotcha. So if I'm hearing you on VC, it was- it's not necessarily like- or it's: know what you're getting into, and know who you're getting into it with. Because you're going to be tied. The reality is, once you go the VC route, and I tell people, my advice is, there's no one way to do it. But if you want to build something that's going to sell for a billion dollars, you're probably going to have to raise a lot of money. And the VCs have a lot of money. And if you got the right VC, it works out great. If the VC doesn't align with you, your culture, how you want to build this, and everything else, then that's gonna be really tough, because you got to rely on them for a lot of different things that aren't obvious, I think.

Katie Hill  23:49

I couldn't have said it any better. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly right.

Callan Harrington  23:53

Yeah. And if you find investors that are aligned with your direction, and everything else, they can work out amazing. But yeah, it's very different. And whether you take, depending on your company growth equity, or a bank note, or there's all- there's pros and cons to all of it. It sounds like for where you were at in the situation, that in hindsight, you could have done that. What would- actually that is my question, what would you have done differently?

Katie Hill  24:17

Well, I think I'm doing it now, actually, which is really exciting. So there was conflict with the VC. Certainly, they played their part in it. Certainly, we played our part in it. I would say like, our biggest mistake was we were really green. And we just didn't know how to navigate these relationships and how to like, probably, you know, not be overly defensive or not be uncertain of where things were going. And I guess now I'm ten years later past that, and I feel like my approach is completely different. You know, I'm a lot more seasoned than I was then. And I think that has made a huge difference. Because yeah, I'm not sitting here saying all VC is evil. I'm not saying that at all. But I do think you have to find the right VC, or the right angels. And what has come to me with this newest venture has been the most incredible people with incredible track records. They are proven technologists, proven entrepreneurs, and they know what they're talking about, their advice is incredible. I'm not just one more board meeting that they have to go to amongst, you know, thirty others. It's just a totally different vibe. And it feels so much better. So it's not to say that- and I think what I'm doing differently is just sort of having brought that experience for it. And just being like, that is not something I want. And when when I see something that's different, I recognize it immediately.

Callan Harrington  25:44

How did you do that? How do you navigate that? Right? So what you had mentioned, how did you do diligence on them, like they would typically do diligence on you, with this new group? Where you found this great situation?

Katie Hill  25:56

So, I think a couple things. One, a lot of my earliest investors are people that I've been working with now for four, five, six years. Like in- I had, after CommuterAds, I joined a local accelerator incubator called the Entrepreneur Center as an entrepreneur in residence. And so just by the nature of that role, I was around a lot of people who were entrepreneurs themselves, or who were interested in the startup space, and have worked with them just side by side as a colleague for five years. And so then when I went out to do my own thing, a lot of them graciously raised their hand to support me in that. So that was, and you know, all people that I knew really well. And so that was really special. And then the other thing that happened was, so this is kind of a crazy story, but you know the podcast How I Built This?

Callan Harrington  26:46

Yeah.

Katie Hill  26:47

Do you know that one?

Callan Harrington  26:47

Yeah, absolutely. Not quite the size of this show, of course. (laughs)

Katie Hill  26:50

In addition to listening to yours- Yes, I also listen to that one. And I heard the episode with Paul English, who started kayak.com. And he was talking about all the different technology businesses he had started. And he also kind of continues to dabble. And he's just had like, massive success with many of them, most of them. And I had the unlistedhomes.com idea in my brain when I heard this podcast and sort of understood the business side of it, and the startup side, and like, knew the story, and the pitch, and the model, and all those kinds of things. But what I didn't know is the technology. So, I sent Paul English an email. After like, listening to this podcast, I found his website and then found some email addresses and emailed those. And a couple of them didn't work. But there was the contact for an assistant on LinkedIn. And so I reached out to her. And then she gave me another email that, like, within fifteen minutes, he emailed me back. I sent him my pitch deck and said that I was looking for technical advice. So yeah, so he wrote me back like that night. And he connected me to Bill O'Donnell, who was the chief architect at kayak.com. And I knew who Bill O. was because Paul talks about him on the podcast. So when he connected me on email, you know, I was like, oh, my God, this is Bill O. I know who this is! Bill O. wrote me back the next day, and we scheduled a Zoom. This is like in the middle of the pandemic, by the way. We scheduled a Zoom for like the following Monday. And we've been talking for an hour every single Monday since. He was on my cap table when I founded the company, with a teeny tiny bit of AdvisorShares. He's very, very, very generous with his time and his advice. I don't think I'll ever be able to properly compensate him for what he's done for me. But yeah, they've made all the difference. So that MVP that we launched a year ago, we did that using KAYAK's dev shop, Archesoft. Because they connected me with that, and like helped me through all that, so that we could at least run a proof of concept. And then eventually, at the end of last year, they came in and invested as well. So by that point, I had been working with them for a year, with Bill O. for an hour a week for a year. They brought in a couple other people who have been super instrumental too, and they're just such a good vibe. I don't know how many ways I can say that. But one of the things that struck me about them is they show up exactly on time to everything. Like if you have a 3:30 Zoom, the second the clock hits 3:30, like they pop up at me in the box, you know. They've done it all. They've seen it all. They don't even have to be talking to me, frankly. And yet, they just give everyone so much respect. And they're just very generous. And it's opened my eyes about how you can have massive success and do it in a way that is still very kind and warm and thoughtful and considerate. And not that we don't have tough conversations, because we do. But always from a place of respect, and they just do things well. And I love that so much, and I've learned so much from them.

Callan Harrington  29:51

That is such an incredible story. So, one- you did the same thing that you did with Leo Burnett job. You just started calling around until you could figure out where to get in touch. So how did that change the trajectory of this business?

Katie Hill  30:03

Well, I mean, the whole thing has been moving a lot faster, and with a lot more ease than how I recall my last startup moving. It just really has felt like I've had the wind at my back. I would say maybe- So I just actually went full time three months ago, and maybe now it's starting to feel a little harder. You know, it's like, now this is reality. I'm in a business development role. So like, I'm spending all day every day, basically cold calling, and trying to, you know, bring customers on, improve the model. I mean, the goal is to generate revenue, so that we can go out and raise another round by the end of the year, and hopefully get that valuation a little higher, because I've been able to prove more with greater revenue. But it's hard, you know, I'm not gonna lie. And then I also have in the meantime, also brought on a full time software engineer, Henry Hagemeyer. He's awesome, based in Chicago. So he's building the product all day, and I'm selling the product all day. And yeah, I mean, it's super exciting, but it's really hard work.

Callan Harrington  30:59

So, you knew that. You knew that would be hard work, because you had founded a successful company before that's still thriving. I guess a couple things. Why do it again?

Katie Hill  31:09

It's a great question. And actually, the thing about hard work, it's funny because I have another adviser too, Brian Core, who's here in Dayton. Bill and I do everything over Zoom, because he's based in the Boston area. But Brian's here in Dayton with me. And I was kind of whining to him the other day, I was like, it's so hard. It's such hard work. And he goes, it's not hard work, it's just work. Like, it's just work. Like, that's what you're doing. Did you think you're gonna do this without work? Of course not. That's an example of when we were talking a little earlier about when you need a kick in the butt or some tough love. Like, that's what I needed to hear. For me that was like, super empowering to be like, yeah, it's not hard, it's just work. Like go do the work. So why do it again? I think that for me, it's always the thing about like, I can't live with myself not knowing like, "what if?" I'd thought it through a ton, I'd looked at it a million ways to Sunday from a financial standpoint, I'd showed it to a ton of smart people. And so many people saw what I saw as well that I felt validated that this is definitely worth a try. There's probably no straight path here. I have a feeling we're talking a year from now that the way in which we're approaching this business could be completely different. We're learning so, so much. But I just think that thought of like laying in bed for the rest of my life wondering what would have happened if I had pursued that transit advertising thing, if I had pursued that real estate idea, where might I be? I'd rather just know.

Callan Harrington  32:29

One hundred percent. And what are you doing differently this time, from your learnings from the first time doing this?

Katie Hill  32:36

Well, I am super selective about who I work with. And luckily, though, I have- I'm very- I think that one of the things I'm proudest of at this point in my career is the network that I have built. And I used to like cringe every time somebody would use the word network. I just thought that sounded so cheesy. And like, the last thing I ever want to do is go to a networking event. But there's so much power in it and I think that that's like, why it feels like the wind is at my back is because I do have amazingly talented, encouraging positive people around me, that can just like not be underestimated. So I think there's something to be said for just being older. And having like, done more things and known more people. And maybe even a piece of it is that I've also done things for other people. I've had more time to do things for others, that then sort of makes them willing to help me, as well. I think that that's probably definitely true. For me, that's what feels the most different is I just have a lot more experience. And I've worked with a lot more people. And they're all really great. And they're helping me too.

Callan Harrington  33:45

Absolutely. When you think of back from being an entrepreneur just in general. What were some of those mistakes? Where you were like, "man, I got lucky to get through this one."

Katie Hill  33:54

That's a good question. I think it's hard for me to- I mean, I think taking things in stride is huge. I mean, I think I was probably a lot more of a drama queen before than I am now. Overreacting to things is not a good option. I think I used to sort of feel like I was always hanging on by my fingertips, and that any little thing that went wrong was like gonna take everything down. Which, it is always precarious. Like, there's no question about that in a startup. But that's the nature of the game, you know. So I think like you need to like not act so surprised when it feels like you're on the edge, because you're on the edge. That's the lifestyle, and until you claw your way out of that, that's what you should expect. And so just sort of not being so dramatic about that is something that I'm definitely trying to do differently.

Callan Harrington  34:42

I think that's such an interesting point. That is definitely one that I was not ready for when I had been in startups. But I do think there's a difference between being in early stage companies and founding a company, any company. It doesn't matter service business, tech company, whatever it may be, where you just like, oh, this could be gone tomorrow, and you've got this doom that hits you, when you go to sleep. Was there something that, either happened, where you were like, oh okay, I don't really feel this anymore? Or was it just over time you just kept surviving? Or like the things that you thought were going to be the most devastating things just didn't end up being the most devastating things, whether that was personally or for the business?

Katie Hill  35:20

Yeah, I think it probably, again, is a function of experience. That I think I was very much defined by my first startup, there was the idea that that wasn't gonna go exactly as I planned. Was like, inconceivable. And the idea of like, if it didn't go right, what would I do next? How would I ever move on? Was also like something I couldn't wrap my head around. But I have reinvented myself multiple times since then. And so I think that it's the same thing with this, then right? I can relax into UNLISTED a little bit more. I mean, not that I'm not working really, really hard at it. But I also know that it doesn't define me, and that people around me are still going to be here. And that there's always like a way forward. And that even these, like super successful people that I have around me right now. Like, they've also hit bumps, you know. And luckily, they're generous with those stories, too. Because it's, you know, it's just all so relatable. But these people that you put up on pedestals, that you think have never made a mistake in their lives, like they've been in the exact same seats that we've all been in. That's what this is all about, like, this is what we do. Like we hit bumps, we mess up, we think some things work. Some things don't. But we just keep going. And it's cheesy. It's cliche, I know. But it's also just true.

Callan Harrington  36:35

It's the number one realization that I've had from this podcast, just in general, where everyone that's been on the show has been successful in whatever their career field is. But that was it. It was not just a straight shot straight to the top. It's like, oh no, this was just figured out from day one. Everybody went through these different turmoils in different ways, and everyone's path's different. So I totally agree with that. Last question. If you could have a conversation with your younger self, age totally up to you, what would that conversation be? What advice would you give them?

Katie Hill  37:07

Yeah, that's- I feel like I'm actually still having conversations with myself on a daily basis, reminding myself of all the things that I've learned, like some of the things that we just talked about. So I would say like a pivotal moment for me, I did take some time away from CommunterAds and was a stay at home mom for a little while. So I kind of like stepped out of my career entirely. And at the time, that felt really good. That felt like what I needed to do. But the idea of coming back was incredibly daunting. I felt like the world had passed me by. I felt like I couldn't remember how to send an email or talk to people that were more than three years old. And I would say that like that was probably the lowest that my confidence has ever been, was making that transition from stay-at-home mom back into the workforce. And I think it took me years, actually, to sort of- I think, actually, there's a possibility that I'm only just now kind of getting my mojo back. And probably UNLISTED has something to do with that. So maybe that goes back to the earlier question of why is it just like, something I'm super excited about that feels like really challenging, but that I know, I can do. And I don't know that I wouldn't even had the chutzpah to do that, even three years ago. So, I guess I would tell that woman, that mom, you know, like, just be patient with yourself, give yourself grace and give yourself room. You know, it's all still there. It's just been used in a different way for a couple of years, you know, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. I have two daughters, and they were eighteen months apart. So I had two little ones at home. And, gosh, you know, I look at those pictures. And I'm so grateful for every single one of those days, and at the same time, now that they're older and so much more independent and capable, I'm also super proud of like, what I'm modeling for them now. So, it's probably natural for everybody to go through those really low, dark times. And not be sure if you're- if you can do it, but you just keep doing that, you know, one step, one foot in front of the other, one step forward, and it all comes back.

Callan Harrington  39:13

I love it. Katie, thanks for coming on the show today.

Katie Hill  39:15

Thanks for having me. This is fun.

Callan Harrington  39:16

I hope you enjoyed Katie and I's conversation. Katie's stories about her persistence were excellent. This has been one of the biggest factors in my own career as well. And if you want to learn more about Katie, you could find her on LinkedIn, as well as unlistedhomes.com. If you liked this episode, you could find me on LinkedIn to let me know. And if you really want to support the show, a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify is very much appreciated. Thanks for listening, and I'll see everyone next week.