Nick Ripplinger - Founder and President of Battle Sight Technologies: Starting a Company From a DoD Research Lab, Building with the Voice of Customer, and Hiring Great People

Nick Ripplinger  00:00

Yeah, I think you have to kind of be vulnerable and be open and honest with your team like, hey, it's alright to tell the CEO to get out of the way. They're not going to hurt my feelings, like it just means that I hired the right person who's got this under control. And I don't need to be worrying about this.

Callan Harrington  00:13

You're listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that lead to their success. I'm your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn't be more excited that you're here. Welcome back, everyone, to a another episode of That Worked. This week, I'm joined by Nick Riplinger. And I'm excited for this episode. Nick is the founder and president of Battle Sight Technologies, incorporating his role as a former US Army soldier and operations NCOIC. Nick created Battle Sight to protect the warfighter by developing new technologies and innovative ideas. Nick is also the best selling author of Frontline Leadership: Applying Military Strategies to Everyday Business. As a service disabled veteran, Nick dedicates his personal time and resources to assisting veterans in transition by leveraging their military skills in the business world. Now, we talked about a number of things I've been curious about for a long time. One in particular is building a startup from a research lab, such as the Department of Defense labs, or a lot of top universities have research labs, and startups spin out of those. And I've been really interested in this for a long time. So I asked a ton of questions, and got the full download. I think this is a very underutilized path, mostly because I don't think that people realize what's available to them and how you even start this process. What Nick gave, the blueprint for anyone looking to explore this route. And I thought it was really, really, really interesting. Two things from the conversation that really stuck out to me, were Nick's leadership style, and his dedication to building products with the voice of the customer in mind. He gives excellent advice and very tangible examples on both of these topics. In Nick's words, you gotta get your boots muddy. So with that, I'm going to stop talking and let's get to the show. Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Ripplinger  02:36

Hey, thanks for having me.

Callan Harrington  02:37

I'm excited to have you here. Tell us a little bit about Battle Sight.

Nick Ripplinger  02:41

Battle Sight is a rapid innovation, product development, and commercialization company. So, we really want to shorten the cycle time from idea to product in the warfighter's hands. It's kind of our overarching goal, with a mission that's very simple, right? We just want to make the men and women downrange fighting, their mission safer, simpler, and more lethal.

Callan Harrington  03:01

And when you say the people fighting, you're talking about your product is specifically for military in that kind of regard. Is that correct?

Nick Ripplinger  03:09

Yeah, there's definitely some overlap into the first responders, police, SWAT, medical, paramedics side as well, but for the most part, really focused on the warfighter, the DOD, Department of Defense, the military people downrange.

Callan Harrington  03:23

Gotcha. And why this company? Why did you found this company in particular?

Nick Ripplinger  03:27

Yeah, so I always joke that the story of Battle Sight is the story of dumb luck, but it's really kind of more of the story of calculated risk. So, prior military myself, spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan at kind of the height of the wars, and then came home, did what everybody does in Dayton, took a job with the government at Wright-Patt. Then kind of got pulled out to industry. But when the opportunity to license some technology out of the Air Force, so we licensed a couple patents, we turned that into our first product, CrayTac, which is infrared crayon, I would have been a customer for this product, when I was back in the military. And I feel personally like my time kind of got cut short due to an injury. And this was a great way to kind of stay in the fight and continue to support the mission that was going on.

Callan Harrington  04:14

Was this created out of a problem that you had, or was this that this is spun out of the research? Is it a research lab that is essentially associated with the Air Force?

Nick Ripplinger  04:22

Correct. So, kind of long, convoluted story. So the army had this problem back in like the early 2000s with soldiers cutting the tips off of glow sticks, trying to communicate, instead of just having a static six inch piece of plastic. So, they actually kicked the problem over to the Air Force Research Labs here at Wright-Patt out of RX, which is materials and manufacturing directory. So they came up with an innovative way to take those two chemicals, turn them into solids, and then put them into like a writing utensil. So those were what kind of the IP was around that we licensed. It was great. We could build five of them at a time. They worked. And then what we really had the problem with is how do you take that same chemistry and then scale it into being able to produce thousands of them a day.

Callan Harrington  05:07

So, spitting out a company from these research labs, whether it's military, I mean, the one that I think probably I see the most common is spinning out of, like Ohio State, for example. Ohio State has research, they're coming up with really cool things all the time. But that's really just kind of- its research within a college. And then somebody needs to actually commercialize that. And that's what you did with this with this company to originally start it. Is that correct?

Nick Ripplinger  05:31

Exactly. That's exactly what we did. And I think it's fair to compare the lab like AFRL, and some of the other DOD labs to university style labs. I mean, they're very different with different fundings. But the fundamental are there, right? They're performing, you know, basic and applied research to solve problems.

Callan Harrington  05:50

Gotcha.

Nick Ripplinger  05:51

So, I think it's fair to kind of think of those Ohio State spin outs of the research side of Ohio State, similar to spinouts, from Air Force, or Navy or Army labs.

Callan Harrington  06:01

I want to circle back to that. Where did your career start? Really in the military, is that right?

Nick Ripplinger  06:07

Yeah. So, I was fresh out of high school, went straight into the military, probably because I had a little too much fun in high school. But it was, you know, the best decision for me. And so, I spent seven years in the military. It was great. I miss it every day. But got to travel the world, got to see some stuff, got to kind of understand, like, globally, kind of what was going on in the world. Got medically retired out of Germany, and then moved back. Of course, had a beautiful plan, was going to take a year off, go back to school, figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. My wife told me she was pregnant when we were like two weeks after we got home. I knew nothing about kids, besides they're expensive. So, I should probably like not take a year off, and go get a job. So, I started off working at Wright-Patt, and then went out to industry. And that's kind of where I fell in love with manufacturing. Got to build a bunch of cool stuff, airplane parts at one of my jobs. And we were doing electronic warfare at another job, but it was always building and hands on. And that's kind of, you know, what the Midwest is known for, right? We're builders. We build stuff, we ship it out to the coast. And so kind of wanted to stick with that DNA of Dayton as let's build something, you know, a company, let's build a product, let's build multiple products. And that's where we're, I guess, rooted.

Callan Harrington  07:21

So, would you say you went and started working for Wright-Patt, what does that mean? Specifically?

Nick Ripplinger  07:26

Yeah, so I took a security job. Not like, guarding a door type of security, it's mostly paperwork of keeping up with people's clearances, keeping the facilities accredited, keeping the IT systems accredited, and then just got burned out on that. And then on the industry side, I was dual-hatted in security and the business side of things a little bit.

Callan Harrington  07:49

Did something just kind of click inside where you're like, "I gotta start a company?"

Nick Ripplinger  07:52

So, I was at a company, we just closed, selling it to private equity at the time. Wasn't sure what I kind of wanted to do next. And so, like talking with mentors, and you know, I had some amazing job offers, but they were all in DC or Los Angeles, and my wife was like, cool, like, come home on the weekends, and we'll see you. So, she wasn't gonna move again. And rightfully so. I mean, she bounced around all over the world with me back in the military days. And so, I was just talking to a mentor, he's like, hey, you should really look at licensing some of this tech. I was like, well, I'm not an engineer, or a scientist by trade, probably not the right guy to do this. He's like, the thing that you have that the scientists and researchers don't have, or you have the voice of customer, right? You've been the customer for these products. And you helped kind of steer the direction that way. And that was kind of the aha moment, was I don't know, maybe there is some value I could bring here. And maybe I am the right guy to take some of this technology, and see if we can turn it into something.

Callan Harrington  08:50

How was that transition for you, as you're exploring this and thinking this through?

Nick Ripplinger  08:54

So, it's interesting, right? So, this all happened back in 2017. So, it was like before working from home was cool. So, when I left my day job, my first day as, you know, a business owner having no clue what the hell I was doing. Like, I'm gonna work from home. And that lasted like fifteen minutes. I worked a solid fifteen minutes the first day, because I got distracted, right, the lawn needed mowed, and the dishes were piling up. And so I ended up the next day, wasting some space at a co working space. And it was really just, I guess, like just figuring it out, right? You have all this freedom, but you still have all this work at the same time. So, I guess it was just to sum it up, I guess. It's just like a big learning experience, not only about like business and the fundamentals, and the groundwork that you have to lay before you actually get to start doing the cool shit, but also a lot about learning about myself and who I am and how I work best. I won't go into much detail about what we're doing here today, but it's 8am and I'm not an 8am person, right? I get to the office at like 9:30, but I'm also there till you know, seven or eight. So, I think you just have to adjust to what works for yourself.

Callan Harrington  10:04

What did you find out about yourself throughout that process?

Nick Ripplinger  10:07

So, I'm definitely not a morning person, like, not so much that I'm not a morning person, but it's alright to not be a morning person, right?

Callan Harrington  10:15

I think that's so true. Do you get a ton of work done between six and eight?

Nick Ripplinger  10:21

100%. When I'm- like, I work better alone. Like, during the day, I need the team around me, I feed off that energy. But, like when it's actually time to like, sit down and get shit done. When the lab's quiet, when the office is quiet, like, that's when I get a lot of work done.

Callan Harrington  10:35

100% If I didn't have those first couple hours in the morning to myself, I'd be a miserable person. I already know I would be. I was a miserable person. And, yeah, that makes sense. It's just whenever you can prioritize that quiet. It's either quiet at night, or quiet in the morning. It's one of the two. Because once the- that in between time, did you find as the founder that that was not your time? In the in between time during the day? It was everybody else's time but yours? Or were you able to kind of push a lot of that out?

Nick Ripplinger  11:04

No, I feel like the main part of my day is for somebody else, right? It's for the scientists and what I graciously call the nerds. Like when they need help, or they need resources, or when there's an issue with a contract and trying to negotiate that with, you know, help with the, you know, the business side of the team. And I always make the joke, right, I went from, you know, thinking I was the boss to having every employee at Battle Sight is now my boss. And during the day, like I'm there to support them and work for them in whatever capacity that they need. And, you know, provide some like guidance and like over arching, you know, vision for where we're going.

Callan Harrington  11:43

How did you come to that conclusion? Did you do it the other way first?

Nick Ripplinger  11:46

No, I think it's just, it's just kind of what it naturally morphed into. Like, I would love to, like sit here and say, I was so smart and figured all this out, but it's just kind of- it is what it is and kind of just how it formed?

Callan Harrington  11:57

Did it form that way out of evolving based around a pain? Or was it, this is just the way I should do it?

Nick Ripplinger  12:06

It wasn't so much a pain, it was more so the most efficient way. I think one thing that we did incredibly smart, and I say we to include the other two partners in the company, was we always try to stay in front of that wave. And like, yeah, it was painful hiring, before we necessarily had all the runway that we needed to have to hire for that position. But we also didn't go out and say, hey, we need a program manager and go hire a junior level program manager. We went and hired a director of programs, who we could build a team around her instead. And like, yeah, it sucked from a cash flow standpoint, because obviously, the senior people are more expensive, but really kind of putting the right people in the right places early on, and then letting them build their teams, and letting them build their processes to be the most efficient. And that's kind of how all that came to be.

Callan Harrington  12:53

So, putting somebody that is an expert in their particular area and trusting them to be able to build that.

Nick Ripplinger  12:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Callan Harrington  12:59

Okay, so something that I want to circle back to... So you, you were exploring these different positions, you were talking with mentors. Before your mentor told you that, did you want to be an entrepreneur? Was this something that was always there?

Nick Ripplinger  13:11

You know, I kind of come from a family of entrepreneurs, so I think it's always kind of been in the back of my head. But I also had two young kids at the time, I had a wife, I had a mortgage, it was definitely not the safe move.

Callan Harrington  13:23

How did you get over that mental hurdle?

Nick Ripplinger  13:26

Personally, it was easy for me, right? Like, hey, kind of circling all the way back to like, when we got out of the military, I wanted to take a year off and figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. Now it's kind of in a position, I had a little bit of savings saved up, I could take a year off, and go try this out. And if it fails miserably, I have all these, you know, amazing job offers, pretty sure I can go get another job. So, from that standpoint, it wasn't like a huge risk in my mind. Now my wife on the other hand, that was a whole other story, and a bunch of hurdles that took to get over.

Callan Harrington  13:56

How did you manage that part? So if I'm hearing you, it's: I had savings, and you almost had two things that were keeping kind of you, as far as your risk tolerance of: I had savings, and I already know I already have these offers. So I could go back to those at any time.

Nick Ripplinger  14:12

Yeah, I figured a few phone calls in a week of time, you know, probably have a job offer.

Callan Harrington  14:17

How did you get over it internally with the family?

Nick Ripplinger  14:20

So, two weeks before Christmas, probably the worst possible time to tell your wife like hey, I'm going to do this or I want to do this. Alright, we had Christmas coming up, always December's always an expensive month for anybody who's got kids. So, probably like the worst time from a financial planning standpoint to be like, hey, in a couple months, I'm gonna quit this job that pays, and, you know, provides this life that we have and try to go out and make some crayons for the military. Yeah, so I mean, it took a little bit of convincing, but my wife's been awesome and supportive. And, you know, it's obviously worked out, thanks to a lot of different things falling in place.

Callan Harrington  14:55

Could you have done that without that support?

Nick Ripplinger  14:58

God no, I probably would have been divorced and living on my buddy's couch or something.

Callan Harrington  15:03

Okay, so you started to explore this. How did you get in touch with the research lab?

Nick Ripplinger  15:08

Oh, so that's a great story. There's an organization here in town, who was designed to help facilitate that. And so I went and met with them. That meeting did not go great.

Callan Harrington  15:18

Can you talk us through that? When you say there's an organization in town to help facilitate that? So they're, they are specifically kind of the liaison between the entrepreneur and the research lab?

Nick Ripplinger  15:28

Correct. So they're called partner intermediaries. So they're kind of like the civilian outside the fence arm of the labs to help, you know, facilitate meetings, facilitate conferences, facilitate tech transfer licenses. There are resources that are, you know, funded by the DoD labs to help kind of set this up.

Callan Harrington  15:48

So, that you've got the Department of Defense labs, they have organizations that help kind of pair the entrepreneur to that. Tell us that story.

Nick Ripplinger  15:56

Yeah, so that story, there's been a lot of personnel changes, and I think they're doing a great job now around this. But that meeting didn't go well, so we went direct with the Air Force, and through LinkedIn, and the online directory of phone numbers, we found the right person at the Air Force. We met and had coffee, she's like, hey, you know, I need a business plan, I need this and that. And I was like, no, it's cool, like, just give me the technology, we'll go build crayons, and we'll sell them back to you.

Callan Harrington  16:22

What was going on in your mind? So, it was like, I'm not doing a business plan, I'm just gonna sell this, or were you like, man, I gotta figure this out?

Nick Ripplinger  16:30

It's a little bit of an aha moment, like, I should probably document some of the shit that's in my head. And like, I knew I didn't want to take on outside investment initially. And so I didn't necessarily think that I should put all these like documents in place just to have these documents in place type of deal. But it was necessary. And it was good. And, you know, kind of kind of grounded me a little bit like, hey, I don't have this all figured out. Which now is like, super, like super self aware, I still don't have anything figured out.

Callan Harrington  17:02

It's one of the most common themes. It's one of the most common themes of the show, where people are like, you're always just figuring it out.

Nick Ripplinger  17:07

Yeah, absolutely.

Callan Harrington  17:08

So, but if I'm hearing you, it was going into this, I've got to already, like, I've got this all figured out.

Nick Ripplinger  17:15

Way too cocky. Like, I'm like, way too, like feeling like I knew it all.

Callan Harrington  17:22

Was the fact that you had a good amount of military experience, and then had been around the military for a while, and almost kind of you saw this, like, oh, I could sell this all day long, because I know this pain. Did that have anything to do with it?

Nick Ripplinger  17:34

Absolutely. It's like, I would have been a customer for this. The guys still wearing the uniform? Surely, they'll still be a customer for this.

Callan Harrington  17:39

So, this is gonna be easy, more or less?

Nick Ripplinger  17:41

Yeah. And I was like, looking way far further down the road than I should have been at that time. Like, give me the technology. Let me figure out what works, what doesn't work with the technology. Let me go hire some scientists, engineers to go build the equipment to actually produce these, just missed that huge middle part of it at this stage of the game. And, you know, I think it's good, because I look back at that, that's always in the back of my head, like, what else am I missing that I haven't quite figured out? Am I working on step three right now when I need to be working on step one of whatever new process or new product? So I think, you know, kind of kick in the ass early on, repositioned kind of my mindset around everything now.

Callan Harrington  18:23

So that humbling moment of, oh, I don't have this all figured out. I need to actually take a look at this.

Nick Ripplinger  18:28

And also knowing like, it's alright, to admit that you don't know everything, right. But you probably know somebody who does know it.

Callan Harrington  18:33

So true. It's so true. There's a great book called Who Not How that kind of talks about that where we always look for the how, right? And we'll spend tons of time researching a how, where there's most likely a who out there. Whether you you know, might it could be a mentor, this could be somebody that you're paying, could could be a coach, could be anything, but you're going to shorten your learning curve dramatically by doing that. Oh, the opportunity cost of that is gigantic. So, one of the things I want to dive into, because it seems super interesting is: so, okay, so you went into this meeting, it was terrible. When walking out of that meeting, what's going on in your mind?

Nick Ripplinger  18:58

100%. And it's money always well spent. If you can shave even a few weeks, like how much money did that save you over running experiments or doing stuff during those two weeks when you could have just bought the answer?  So, I think that was very motivating, to be honest with you. It was, you know, I'm going to make this happen now, in spite of that meeting, which is probably never a good idea to like, feed off of that energy. But I did, and I went back and I closed my door, and you know, punched out on PTO, and started making phone calls. I'm like, there's got to be somebody at the Air Force whose job is to facilitate these. And I found that woman, she was a total rock star, she was a scientist turned, you know, tech transfer lady. And, you know, she really helped guide the whole process from business plans and all the documentation that she needed, she actually had input into it to help make them stronger. And that relationship was huge in the beginning of Battle Sight.

Callan Harrington  20:11

Is that the standard process, or was she just awesome and was just trying to- like, she liked you, thought you were the right person to do it, so she's going to help you kind of get there?

Nick Ripplinger  20:20

I think it was a little bit of both, to be honest. I think, you know, the DoD has a desire and a mission to get this technology out and get it commercialized, so that they can purchase it for their warfighters. Because they're not doing research that isn't solving problems, right? Everything that they're working on solves a problem that came from a requirement somewhere in the force. So, I definitely think there's a strong desire there. I also think, you know, this lady who we connected with is just naturally a rock star. I think she would have been a rock star at whatever she did in life. And that definitely kind of helped speed things along.

Callan Harrington  20:54

So, you just brought up an interesting point I didn't think about. They're essentially assessing, you know, they've probably got tons of problems that bubble up to them. They're prioritizing the ones that they think are going to have the biggest impact. They can't hire all the people, they'd have to build a million companies in order to do this all internally. So, they want to get this in the hands of an entrepreneur, is that correct?

Nick Ripplinger  21:17

100%? Yeah.

Callan Harrington  21:19

Okay, so what I'd love to know is, so you went you built the business plan, what other things did you have to do in order to be a candidate to be able to take this on?

Nick Ripplinger  21:28

I think you need to understand the technology early on, and not necessarily how to go build them. Because, you know, to be honest with you, I still don't know how we build these things. We've got scientists now that do that. I understand the big concepts, but you have to understand kind of the technology at a high level as to how it works, and more importantly, why it's important. And your customer base, which luckily for me, in this situation, I knew the customer base inside and out, because I would have been a customer. And I still have a lot of friends in, and I was able to bounce a lot of ideas off of those guys. But also being able to show up in that business plan that, hey, I talked to these twenty five organizations, and they all say this is a pain point for them. And if this type of technology was available, they would be interested in. And kind of having that customer validation really helped kind of show that we are the right team to take this piece of technology and turn it into a product.

Callan Harrington  22:21

So, you were doing a ton of customer research was that so?

Nick Ripplinger  22:24

Here's before we even had the technology. At this point, I've been out for like five years. What has changed in the last five years that I've been out that I haven't been connected? I haven't been out in the field, haven't been deployed, haven't been in combat. Is this still what they're doing?

Callan Harrington  22:36

You know, it's funny, people ask me all the time, just because I've been in the startup space for a while and they say, "if I'm going to start a business, what would I do? I was like, go talk twenty five customers. I didn't make this up. Jason Lemkin, he's been in the tech space forever, big name in the tech space. He's like, go do twenty customer interviews. And like, you're gonna learn more in those twenty customer interviews. And typically, whatever idea you had is going to evolve at that point. And that's essentially what you did, just because you're like, I got to talk with people to make sure. I'm super excited about this. I want to see if there that excited, or is this even still relevant?

Nick Ripplinger  23:09

Exactly! Like, and let's fast forward to today real fast, and then we can jump back. The thing that has helped Battle Sight grow is we go out to the field, right, we go to our where our customers are, whether that's in Okinawa or out in the desert of Las Vegas. Wherever they go, that's where we want to be. And my favorite question to ask is what sucks about your job? Right? I know, I can't solve all your problems. But if there's some way that a simple widget will help make your mission better, like yeah, I'll go take on that task, and, you know, prototype a widget for you, and get some feedback. We don't take on any project, or any development, or any IRAD, or even like government funded research projects, without having that voice of customer alongside us. Because, you know, I spent so many years deployed, and we always had a footlocker worth a shit, of gear, that was given to us, that we were responsible for, that did not benefit us at all. That I never carried. I'd never use on a mission, but I'm still responsible for like $10,000 worth of stuff. And I'm, you know, a poor private, or specialist, or young sergeant, or wherever. You can't take that loss, personally, for $10,000 worth of government gear you lost, so you just lock it up and hope, you know, it's still there at the end of the deployment. And I was like, I never want to build anything that's going to end up in that footlocker, that's never gonna get used. So, I think having that voice of customer, from the ideation stage of a project is crucial.

Callan Harrington  24:33

Are you responsible for that personally, if you lose that piece of equipment?

Nick Ripplinger  24:37

Yeah.

Callan Harrington  24:38

Really?

Nick Ripplinger  24:39

Yeah. I mean, you're like commander, like if it gets damaged in combat, or something, alright, your commander's gonna sign off and say, you know, got blown up and this is what happened. But if it's just like negligence, like you lost it, yeah, you're kind of responsible for that.

Callan Harrington  24:51

Huh. So in your mind, it was I want to build something that people care about enough that they don't even think about that. It's like my cell phone. My cell phone is on me at all times because the value that the cell phone provides to me.

Nick Ripplinger  25:03

Absolutely. And it's- we just wanted to have an impact. We know we're not going to build, you know, the next tank or the next, you know, airplane, but we want, what what can we put on you, where every ounce of weight that you carry is important? That it's worth carrying, you know, this extra, you know, fifty grams of a CrayTac. If you have that customer telling you what's going to make their mission safer, simpler.

Callan Harrington  25:28

It makes sense. And I believe this, even on the, you know, of course product, really good product managers are doing a ton of customer research. And I actually believe that even on the sales and marketing side, you need to constantly be interviewing your customers to understand what do they actually care about? And is your messaging, and is your product, and is how you're pitching this aligning with that. Because otherwise, you're gonna have a pretty hardcore bait and switch. And that's like, it's terrible for everybody. What was that actual transfer process like? So you got the technology, you passed these hurdles, now you're in business. What was that like? Given what you know now, what would you do differently throughout that process?

Nick Ripplinger  26:05

It was a whirlwind. Again, at this point, I kind of realized I don't have this all figured out, that I'm going to need some help. And, you know, I'm not a chemist, by any means, but we had to make these microcapsules. So right, get online, buy the book and just just trying to get smart on everything that I could get smart on in the process. And so, I do think like having that very humbling meeting, and, you know, kind of working with the tech transfer person from the Air Force was such a huge eye opener that, alright, I need to get smarter than I currently am. So reading all the books, whether it's both like business and technical at this point, because it was two dudes and an idea at that time. I think I would have hired sooner. I think I would have not been as scared to make that hire.

Callan Harrington  26:57

Why were you afraid to make that hire?

Nick Ripplinger  26:59

Just because I feel the responsibility of every employee that works at Battle Sight is kind of on my shoulders. I know them all personally, like through working with them, that so and so has three kids at home. And if I screw up and have to lay somebody off or the company folds, it's not one person is losing their job that's, you know, a family of five who just lost a job and an income stream. So, I think I was kind of slow to hire, just wanted to make sure that we had the runway and the ability to sustain that employee for probably longer than was required, because we knew we were going to keep winning work, we were going to keep growing sales, we are going to continue to grow as a company. But if it's the first time you're doing that, and you don't know, we were just a little, probably a little too cautious on that front.

Callan Harrington  27:46

How'd you get over that?

Nick Ripplinger  27:47

We made our first big hire. And then we saw what she brought to the table and how she helped. We always talk about when we hire somebody, they have to change the trajectory of the business, right? We're still a small team, so when we hired her, our trajectory definitely changed. In a more upward angle, and that laid the groundwork for us to go hire, you know, a chief scientist, which also changed the trajectory of the company. And then we had to go hire some more technicians to free up that chief scientist to keep, you know, doing his thing and changing the trajectory of the company. And it's kind of just been a domino effect that just kind of built up over the years.

Callan Harrington  28:25

How did life change for you after that first big hire?

Nick Ripplinger  28:29

So, life change for me is, I think the hardest thing is, as a company starting to grow as a founder of getting out of the day to day business, and working on the business instead of in the business. And it's something I have personally struggled with, to this day, right? Luckily, I've got a great team, they're like, hey, dude, back off, I've got this, go work on something else, like, go find the next thing. And, you know, I think you have to kind of be vulnerable, and be open and honest with your team, like, hey, it's alright to tell the CEO to get out of the way. They're not going to hurt my feelings. Like it just means that I hired the right person who's got this under control, and I don't need to be worrying about this, and I can go work on, you know, bigger things or the next, you know, product idea, or go spend time in the field with our customers and figure out what's working, or how we can make, you know, generation two better than generation one.

Callan Harrington  29:16

Do you set that as an expectation, that you expect them to push back on you?

Nick Ripplinger  29:20

Oh, absolutely. Right? I'm fully aware I don't have all the ideas. You know, I say kind of jokingly, but I fully mean it, is I want to be the dumbest person in the room. Right? If I pull the team of, you know, the scientists and the business, like back of house type of stuff. I need to be the dumbest person in the room explained what's going on technically, what challenges we're facing, and what resources you need to solve those. I don't need to be in the lab mixing stuff. I don't need to be in the, you know, QuickBooks, moving, you know, accounting stuff. If I do overstep and get in your lane, like absolutely kick me out of the lane.

Callan Harrington  29:57

How do you ensure that you get feedback?

Nick Ripplinger  29:59

So, my office, I share with our COO. We actually sit at a table very similar to this, it's, I don't know, eight feet by four feet, maybe. And we face each other, so we have that instant accountability all day with each other. So, one of our walls is a glass storefront, no blinds, no frosting, it's just pure glass. So, all the employees can see into my office, and it's got a sliding door that never closes. We probably should make sure that the door's still greased, because it doesn't get used, like ever. But just kind of having that open door policy and actually meaning it, right? My door's always open, and even if it was closed, you could still see in, so you know what's going on. And so I think that kind of communication has to go both ways. So, I need to be, you know, communicating everything with them. And they need to be communicating everything with me. And there's no real hierarchy. It's a very flat organization.

Callan Harrington  30:55

In your mind, what was the biggest challenge in growing this?

Nick Ripplinger  30:59

Letting go. New contract comes in, knowing that I don't need to read every page, right? We have somebody who's screening it, and working out all the T's and C's, and all the deliverables, and making sure the dates lined up with kind of what we forecasted, and the payments lined up with what we forecasted. But just, like there's four things I need to check on a contract before I sign it, because I know everything else is already taken care of by this rockstar, program director that we have on staff.

Callan Harrington  31:26

Safe to say that hiring really good people was the biggest catalyst to the business as a whole?

Nick Ripplinger  31:33

100% The people is what makes Battle Sight, you know, such an innovative company. You know, a company that under promises, and over delivers on every contract is 100% the team that we have.

Callan Harrington  31:46

So, if somebody wants to, you know, if you're talking with somebody that's like, hey, I'm really interested in this, building a company based off of research from, let's say, the military, the Department of Defense labs, what advice would you give somebody that's considering that?

Nick Ripplinger  32:02

So, I think the biggest piece of advice is, so there's these things called CRADAs, they're fairly easy contracts to get negotiated. There's no exchange of money. It's a cooperative research and development agreement, I think, is what CRADA stands for. But try to get one of those in place, and go explore the technology. Like get a deep enough understanding of the technology, and what challenges you're going to have to scale, because there's going to be challenges, right? This is, you know, basic or applied research. It's not production worthy materials. So, you're going to have a scale up challenge. And knowing that is something we didn't know in the beginning. And then taking that knowledge and get it out in the field, like to get your boots muddy, and go talk to people. You know, whether it's the military field, or whether this is a product you want to put on the shelf at Walmart, go talk to Walmart, see if this is something that they'd be interested in carrying. Go talk to the consumers that, you know, shop at Walmart, and see if there's something they're interested in buying. Kind of building that data package around, you need to kind of be thinking about the end state in the beginning.

Callan Harrington  33:06

Is that really to build confidence that this is something that you can do?

Nick Ripplinger  33:10

I think so. I mean, there's plenty of technology that gets patented, that just is not valuable. And there's somebody I was listening to yesterday, I forget her name, but some technologies need to die, right? Not every great idea gets turned into something that then goes on to get sold or consumed. So I think you have to be disciplined as to what technology you're going to go after and make sure there's a market fit for it.

Callan Harrington  33:36

Would you recommend this route? So, if somebody has the options of going this route, or going and just kind of figuring this out on their own? Would you recommend this route to somebody?

Nick Ripplinger  33:46

Yeah, I think the patent license route is so underutilized. And it's not just Air Force Research Lab, or Army Research Lab, or Navy research lab, or DARPA, or any of these government research organizations. Every major college has a research department and like we've licensed some stuff from a university out of Georgia, we've licensed, you know, stuff from Air Force on two different occasions, we've looked at some Navy Tech. I feel like it's such an underutilized way of, you know, having some fundamental research done already that's going to jumpstart and shave years off of your research and scale up plan. But also like, we also develop a lot of stuff in house at Battle Sight as well. So, I think both paths are definitely viable. I do think this is kind of going to shave a couple years off that process.

Callan Harrington  34:37

That's really interesting. So if I'm hearing you correctly, because you guys already knew how to do this licensing process. You start out the Air Force Research Lab, and then because you know how to do this, it was okay well, there's tons of research labs that have no affiliation with the government whatsoever and all these major universities. We already know the process of of licensing this technology. We're not limited to anything, and including building our own stuff. Gotcha. That's really interesting. So, one thing I want to kind of talk about us on the flip side of this, are there any challenges to be aware of going into this, where you were like, oh, I didn't think about this? Or, with all these licenses, if you exit the company, are they essentially acquiring, of course, the company, but also those patents? Are there any risks to that?

Nick Ripplinger  35:05

And there's so much overlapping technology and research going on. Right? So we have this product called Cold Fire. It's a photo luminescent material. The university that's in Georgia was also working on some technology like that. So we were able to license that, pair that with another licensed piece of technology, put our own little flavor onto it, and now that's our Cold Fire product. Yeah, so all the patents that Battle Sight has done is owned by the company. Our names are all listed as inventors.

Callan Harrington  35:56

Even if it came from one of these research labs?

Nick Ripplinger  35:59

Oh, so the research labs, yeah, those are also held by the company. So, if you were to, you know, buy Battle Sight today, all those licenses stay with the company. Has no issues at all, if ownership changes, because the entity holds those licenses. And then same thing with like the patents developed in house are all owned by the company. So those all transfer.

Callan Harrington  36:19

To the buying company. And there's no, there's no encumbrance. And it does-

Nick Ripplinger  36:23

You don't even have to notify, because as long as the Battle Sight name and entity is still holding it, like we could swap you and me on the cap table instantly, and nothing happens on the license side.

Callan Harrington  36:35

Interesting. So, are there any restrictions on when it comes time to selling the company?

Nick Ripplinger  36:40

Nope.

Callan Harrington  36:41

So what are the cons of this? Gotcha, so you may not even know how to build this thing. So, you may have like the basics, but if you want to make iterations to this, if you want to do any of that, you're gonna have to hire your own team to be able to deconstruct that, is that correct?

Nick Ripplinger  36:43

So, the cons, I would say, sometimes things get patented very vaguely, it's not the full recipe, right? There's all these different variables. So, I think if you don't have the researcher involved, which we were fortunate, we had the researcher involved in the beginning, but then he took a job out in California, and that kind of obviously not coming to our lab and Dayton, Ohio to help us out any. When we write patents too, we try to keep them vague, so we're not giving away the secret sauce here. So, I do think that you need to plan on the scaling up side of things, that you have to go off the assumption that the only information you're ever going to get is what's listed in the patent. And you might get lucky. And that might not be the case, you might have you know, an awesome researcher who's willing to help out. The safe bet is, this is all the information I have, am I going to be able to turn this one patent document into a product that the consumers want? Absolutely. Like and CrayTec's a prime example. Our patent, we were able, with the help of the scientists, we were able to make, you know, five of these at a time. And they worked great. And they were a great demo sticks. And we were able to go out and capture feedback. And we were able to tweak and design the fit and function. And then we wanted to make a thousand of them at a time. And that was all the way back to ground zero. We had to reformulate all the chemistry, because it just did not scale the way we thought it was going to.

Callan Harrington  38:11

Gotcha, that makes complete sense. Super, super interesting. I definitely also think this is under utilized, and a lot of people don't realize that this kind of stuff exists. So last question I have for you. If you could have a conversation with your younger self age, totally up to you, what advice would you give? And what would that conversation look like?

Nick Ripplinger  38:32

That's a great question. So I'm- shit, I'm thirty-six, I think started the company when I was thirty. I think I'd go back to that time in life six years ago, and don't be afraid. I think it'd be the biggest thing, right? You've dodged bullets. There's definitely different types of bullets coming at you when you're starting this out from a technology standpoint, from a business standpoint, to just everything in business. But I should have done this probably, you know, a year sooner. So don't be afraid to take that leap, make that hire, invest in that equipment, take on that bigger shop. Just all those things that are big things that I probably could have moved faster on.

Callan Harrington  39:12

I can't imagine a better place to stop it than right there. Nick, thanks for coming on the show.

Nick Ripplinger  39:15

Oh, thank you. Appreciate it.

Callan Harrington  39:22

I hope you enjoyed Nick and I's conversation. I learned so much about building a company from a research lab. And I think it's a really interesting path. If you want to learn more about Nick, you could find him on LinkedIn in the show notes. Also, if you liked this episode, you could find me on LinkedIn to let me know. And if you really want to support the show, our review on Apple Podcast or Spotify is very much appreciated. Thanks for listening, and I'll see everybody next week.