Rick Fox - CRO of Brightway: Leading Leaders, Setting Expectations, and Creating a Performance Culture

Rick Fox  00:00

I think that's the responsibility of leaders that sometimes gets missed. Your job is to trickle down the information and to build the expectation. But I think you should all take on the responsibility of helping leaders be better leaders.

Callan Harrington  00:16

You're listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that led to their success. I'm your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn't be more excited that you're here. Welcome back, everyone to another episode of That Worked. This week, I'm joined by Rick Fox. Rick is the Chief Revenue Officer at Brightway Insurance. Brightway is one of the largest insurance distribution companies in the US with over 300 franchises in thirty-two states. Prior to joining Brightway, Rick was the head of agency sales at Vertafore, a leading insurance software company, and he previously served as the president of Agency Revolution, an agency automation and marketing consultancy. This conversation is fairly different than any that we've done to date. We ended up getting into a discussion on leadership, and spent the entire time there. I thought it was a really fun conversation. We talked about the parallels between coaching sports teams, and leading business teams, and sports analogies get used a lot. What I thought was particularly interesting about this conversation was Rick was a coach. And he talked about how some of the things that he was doing as a coach translated into business, and I just thought it was very interesting. We also discussed tactics for managing teams with diverse personalities. I think this is a really big topic for any new leader. It was certainly an area that I had to get wrong before getting it right. And Rick gave a great breakdown on this. Now the part of the conversation that I love the most was regarding expectation setting. To me, this is one of the most important pieces of being a leader. It starts on day one. And it is something that you have to constantly maintain. And Rick gave a lot of great examples and stories from his personal experience. And really, the episode as a whole is perfect for anyone that is currently leading people or aspires to be in a leadership position. So with that, let's get to the show. Rick, welcome to the show.

Rick Fox  02:48

Thanks, Callan. I appreciate you having me, man. And I like what you're doing on this, and I always love to be on shows where people are out trying to help other people. So appreciate what you do, and thanks for having me.

Callan Harrington  02:58

Well, I appreciate that. That means a ton. And kind of like a similar vein, an area where I'd love to kick the show off is, you know, I know basketball. You talk about this. And I see these videos of your son dunking all over the place. Walk us through how has basketball impacted you from a business perspective?

Rick Fox  03:19

Yeah, that's a great question. And how many hours do we have to talk about this? Because yeah, I can go on forever. So as a younger coming out of college, start trying to get my feet under me, not having money, and you know, you want to give back. And having been a basketball player myself, I started coaching basketball, youth basketball, and this is before I had kids. When I got into it, it was like, I want to teach the skill part of it. That's a huge part. But where this really changed is my son, who you mentioned, he's a really good basketball player, and he was always really good. So at the age of like seven, he already had a YouTube video that was like 100,000 views of him dribbling basketballs, this little tiny guy. And we were at a tournament where there was this other kid who had did similar videos, he was like five or six years older than my son, Dre. He had been on The Ellen Show, like dribbling, like he was a big- like millions of views on his video. And he kind of walked- like they had a game, and we watched the game, and they came off the court- my son's in the first grade, and like he kind of reached out, like, good game guys. And they kind of mocked him, like, kind of like, look at this little guy right here kind of thing. And I thought, okay, there's another side to this, that's as important, and it's the mental part of learning how to be an athlete. And so, as I started to coach, and we built a program actually around this, our motto was life lessons through the vehicle of basketball. So how does that work as a leader? Like you're instantly a leader when you're a coach. And I have memories of coaches that were awful at that, right? But I wanted to create an environment where every kid had the opportunity to grow as a player and as a human., because there's so many lessons in basketball. So we started building this mentality around hard work, and all these things you could instill in kids at a young age that were maybe missing, I don't wanna say missing, in their lives, but had maybe not been taught, because we had some really good players that had been almost like kind of catered to. And we didn't do that, it's like, you're gonna have to earn your stripes. And that's the way- I don't know that I learned that through basketball, but I got to a point where it became so crystal clear that that's how I wanted to be in the rest of my life. So as I look at my leadership, in business now, it is as much about empowering and coaching the people that work for me, as it is about like results. Although, you know me, you know my background, you know sales has always been a piece of that. But it's the same thing as basketball, if I teach you the skill, and I teach you the mindset and the elite mental makeup to be great, the end result is wins, right? On the court. And that's what we did. We won a lot. And the same thing is true in business, if I give you the skills, or the tools, or the technology, and I put everything in front of you, and I empower you to take those skills, and use an elite mindset to be great. The results are what? Wins.

Callan Harrington  06:22

What in your mind makes up an elite mindset?

Rick Fox  06:25

So, first and foremost, and just as soon as you said that, the first thing that pops into my mind is it's 1 and 1A. One is the want to be great, you have to want to be great. And to be great, 1A is, you have to be willing to take in constructive feedback. You have to be willing to say, I'm not great at X, I'm good, or I'm really not at all good, and I need to be good before I'm great. So if you have somebody who wants it, there's a mentality, and I say this to my teams, I'm like, look, we're gonna do this, we're gonna move at this pace. If you want to be a part of that, awesome. If you don't, that's okay too, but this might not be the right place for you. Because there's a intentional move toward bringing in people that want to push themselves. Because if I have people that want to push themselves for greatness, it makes it much easier for me to nudge instead of drag, to push instead of pull, those people to their best version of themselves. And again, the result of all those things continues to be that our company is successful.

Callan Harrington  07:30

So what I'm hearing you say is that the mindset, you've got to want it, and you have to be coachable, you have to be able to take that feedback. And you're setting the expectation to make it really clear that, if you want to be part of this organization, this is what it takes, and this is what we're going to do. Totally okay if you don't, this just is not going to be the organization for you. Is that right?

Rick Fox  07:54

100%. And it's funny, we're looking, I mean, as always, you're always interviewing for new roles and things. And I had a call late last week with somebody, and I literally said, like, I'm going to give you the good, the bad, and the ugly about our company. Because, when you walk through the door, two things need to happen. One is you need to have an expectation that was already set. So you're not walking into some kind of a burning building. And two, right, you laugh, but right?

Callan Harrington  08:21

(laughs)

Rick Fox  08:21

(laughs) And then, and then two is, I don't want to- and I use this sort of facetiously now, because we're not always in the office, but I don't want to walk by your cube with like my hand up next to my eyes, because I didn't tell you the real story. So there's kind of this the building of an expectation. And that's as fundamental to what good teams, good cultures- How many times, like think about your career, how many times have you heard someone say, I just, like, I do this, and it's like, it doesn't matter, they're not telling me how I'm supposed to get from X to Y or Y to Z, or I don't quite understand why this company is going in this direction. Well, when you hear that, the first thing I think is, you didn't set a clean expectation all the way down your chain. That trickle down of expectation is how you turn a good team into a great team. It's how you turn a culture of whatever kind of people that get along to "I love what I do, and I love why I do it." And here is the expectation. Let's just say. I'm making this up. But your goal is to get to 100 sales calls- like, what- it's 100? Are we clear on that? Okay, now, how do we get there together? And how do you figure out like, I can help you with whatever it is to get to eighty, but how do you get to 100? They can control their own destiny, and they can control how far they can go. And on the heels of all of this good leadership, the biggest foundation of all of it, like behind the scenes is a career path. You know, at any given time, from my last job at Vertafore to now, it's like hundreds of people in my organization. If I do these things that are expected of me, and I do want this, and I'm willing to take that input, then what does that mean? Because what's the, what is the light at the end of the tunnel? What is my next step? What am I driving toward? Because you're gonna have a bad day. And if that bad day is sort of set in a bad week or a bad month, where you're not sure why you're doing it, or you're just in it for the paycheck, because the organization hasn't cleared a path for you and told you what the end of the road looks like, that's when the wheels start to, they get a little rattly. And then they get a little more rattly, and then they fall off. And I talk to people all the time, especially, you know, in my line of business, and you know, my curious nature, that I have conversations, and I hear so many times, either, we can't keep people around, or we can't find good talent. Okay, if you think about those two things, they're kind of the same, but keep people around. Well, the world is crazy, and the great resignation happened, and everybody thought they needed to try something new. But there were still a lot of people that didn't, and you know who those people were? The people that were emotionally, financially, and some, spiritually motivated to continue to do what they're doing for who they're doing it for. And those people said, yeah, I know, it's crazy. And there's this work from home and other opportunities, and I should reevaluate. They kind of went, yeah, that's- I should do all those things. And when they reevaluated, they came back to: great culture, know exactly my expectations are, if I strive for greatness, they're gonna give me an opportunity, I love what I do, and I love the team that I'll do it with. So when you hear that, it's the same thing going back my coaching days, you talk to a parent who would say, you know, little Jimmy's not getting minutes, but that team is super political. It's really not, that's not true. Little Jimmy is probably not good enough to get minutes, and you're hiding behind the political, because you know, who plays minutes in games? Really good players. You know who gets opportunities in organizations? Really good people in that organization.  You know, I think a couple of things that you mentioned there, you know, one, expectations is huge. And what I heard you say, and I totally agree with, is setting those expectations right from the start.  That's right.

Callan Harrington  12:16

And I made that mistake. I made that mistake in the startup space, where I wouldn't, you know, I would try to sell, oh, you got to be part of the startup, this is gonna be so much fun. I sugarcoated it, and I didn't give them a real feeling of like, this actually goes up and down, you have no idea, this literally could be done tomorrow. That's just kind of the rules of it. And I had to change that. And I had to do that in two ways. One, where you had to deal with more of a disqualification process, and then two, I had to bring in a sales rep that's actively on the team and say, ask them whatever you want. Nothing's off the table. I want you to know exactly what you're getting into. One of the things that I'm really curious about, because you've had the opportunity to go into these positions at large, established organizations. So you go into one of these teams, and you know, you've got some of them, that mindset, they get that to the tee, but some of them don't have it. How do you handle that? What's your process for that?

Rick Fox  13:19

That's a great question. I mean, thank you for asking is what I mean, is because now you're getting into the secret sauce. So, take my last opportunity of Vertafore, I had seventeen teams, and they're at any different position as far as culture, and talent, and mindset. And as you know, that energy can go one way or the other. So if you get a team with some negativity, and maybe a leader that's not quite setting the right expectations, that thing can go in a negative direction quick. So the way I've always looked at it is, and this is, let me simplify down to the easiest part, which is you can't just say it, and then hope that it works. Because I can't have an all-hands, and tell 275 people, this is how we're going to think about this. It goes back to me, and I always use this as my kind of level-set on this, which is: are we following through as leaders? So follow through as leaders, is, it's one thing to set an expectation, it's another thing to constantly be in the same mindset yourself to make that expectation real. So here's my example. It's the silliest example you can think of. You're in line at the grocery store. And there is a mom in front of you, or a dad, and they have a three or four year old, and what do they do at the grocery store? They put the candy right at the checkout, right? Always. And this has happened to me. In fact, it's one of the things I even set my mind on as a younger you know, twenty-something before I had kids, that this is what I was never going to do, and it translates into the business world, which is: mom, can I have some candy? No, you can't. Please, please let me have- No. No candy. It's almost dinnertime. Please, please?! No! Mom? Okay, just this once. And that mom just set an expectation, which was, if I do something, there is a result that I'm going to like, that's against what the original result was. So if I tell seventeen teams, this is how we're going to think about it, these are the goals, we're gonna set, and we're gonna all have this positive energy. And then I go to another meeting, and I allow them to not live in that world, or I allow their leader to not cascade down, that we're not going to have candy before dinner. I'm using that as an example. So it is on leaders of leaders to get everybody in lockstep and stay there. You don't get to say it and then check out. You don't get to let them bark a couple times, and by the third time say, yeah, you know what, that I really have sixteen good teams, and this one that just- No, that's not how this works. That's not how this song ends. So for real leaders, and then for people that are listening in that, like, it's a silly little- but it's a trigger that I have, and it's the: can I have some candy? And I think about that. And that's what motivates me. And I use that with my leaders to say, this is what I expect. That is what you have to expect. On the third ask for candy, we won't change that. It's still what we expect, and the answer will always be no. And so, no on the candy. So does that kind of like frame that up? Because to me, if you can stay like- set your goals, make that money. Again, goals have expectations. It's not like we're going to do eight million in sales, and we did 400,000 last year. That's not a goal; that's a joke. Here's how we're gonna get to eight million. And we're gonna live there. And if you start complaining, because I didn't give you candy, we're not going to change it. Because we're all in line, and you might be the outlier. And this, again, to your point Callan, this might not be the right job for you. Or that particular role might not be the right environment for you. Because we're not going to give you candy. Because we've already set an expectation.

Callan Harrington  17:04

Yeah, I think it's a great example. For me, candy's already purchased; kid doesn't even need to ask. Just my advice, Rick, if there's SourPatch kids in there, I'm buying them. (laughs)

Rick Fox  17:15

(laughs) Yeah, I said candy, and you're already off in like, am I going to have Swedish Fish after this contest? What are we gonna go with? Totally off point.

Callan Harrington  17:22

That's it. I'm going straight to the store after this. But in all seriousness, and actually it brings up a follow up question on this. So sixteen teams, that's probably sixteen-ish managers, one manager may have two teams. What was the biggest change for you going from managing a team, one team of individual contributors, to managing managers?

Rick Fox  17:44

Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic, because the first thing you have to figure out, and I'll tell you a little side story here. So when we sold Agency Revolution go FMG Suite, FMG Suite was owned by K1, it's a private equity company, they had, I think, twenty-something portfolio companies. And they did a year long, like, advanced management class. And we could take- I was chosen, very appreciative of the opportunity, I'd say we read five or six books in that process, and they were all good books. But the book that stood out and changed sort of that dynamic for me was a book called Emotional Intelligence 2.0, and I realized what an absolute bulldozer I was in situations where bulldozing was not what was needed. And you get leaders of leaders, you have a larger expectation, not just to manage what gets done and what gets cascaded down through your voice, but helping them find their voice. So that's the piece that I was more like, yeah, we're gonna do like, you know, we're gonna paint the- I'm making this up as an example- but when we get done, every wall is going to be blue. And that, you know, the manager's like, well, I'm just gonna use Rick's energy, because he's a bulldozer and that's how we- no, this manager of this team is completely different than that manager, and their need to how to be a leader versus this person. So now I've taken on the responsibility of not just getting the expectation through and cascaded, communicated, but helping that person grow as a leader. That's when my light bulb went on. Like, I have a lot of work to do to be even better, like, because I feel like I'm a good leader. I think if you ask people, they would say, yeah, we like working with Rick, he's got a good energy, and he does set clear expectations. But that was years ago, and I've still like daily now will continue to work with my leaders. Again, number one, because we have to have an expectation across an organization to accomplish our goals. And if you live in the private equity world that is today, not tomorrow. Today, because everything there- time is your your biggest enemy. But now it's on me, and this is where leaders get lazy, alright and I'm not a lazy leader, is working with my leaders to find their leadership voice, to find their leadership style, and how they can be the most effective, so that they can also see their growth. So if you have, let's say, you are right, we have sixteen, seventeen teams, if I want to be good, I can just do that thing where we all get together on an all hands call and I tell all my leaders is how we do it. Everybody get my voice. Yeah. And I'm super energetic and passionate. And you know, a little bit of my way or the highway kind of like a vibe to that, that might be exactly the opposite of the style for you, as a leader that can get the exact same, let's say better result, but through a different voice, through a different lens, through a different emotional intelligence. That is the way they are built. And that to me was the big aha.

Callan Harrington  20:52

Do you have an example specifically of a process or a framework that you took a leader through to help them find their leadership voice?

Rick Fox  21:01

Yeah, so I- the first one that pops into my head is, and this is many examples, but I'll just use one in particular, where this was a leader, very, very intelligent, like MBA, school-smart, always knew the facts, did the work, was a grinder, wanted greatness, but had this one thing that was, and this is very true of people in life, and especially salespeople, they try to become friends with the prospect. So this leader wanted to be friends with all of the people that worked for them. So the problem with that is, if you go over the line into the friendzone, there is no level of expectation or accountability that they feel toward you. Now, again, let me be very clear, you want to get along with your people. That's a big part of this. But there is a line that you crossed when you become drinking buddies, versus let's know where we are here. I'm the leader, you're the contributor, this is the expectation. When you don't hit it, we're going to have a conversation. And that gets lost in there. And so this particular leader, the path that I put them on, was that once a week they had to completely get outside of themselves, and go above where they would end up eventually as a leader, but like, raise their voice, or cut somebody off, or put them on notice that this wasn't okay, once a week. And this person did it. And it was super uncomfortable for them. Week one, "oh, my God, Rick, like, you should have seen their faces. They're all mad at me." They're not mad at you, it was just different, and they were uncomfortable. Do it again. By the fourth week, and- now they're still drinking buddies, right? But now they have changed the dynamic, which is: I miss my number last month. Oh, bro, don't worry about it, man. We'll get 'em, it's cool. Okay, hold on. I missed my number last month. Hold on. Why? And what have you already solutioned to hit your number next month? Instantly, there's a change in that dynamic. Now, twenty minutes later, you go back to, oh my god, you see that game last night? Like, if your greatest version of yourself is this, like, friendly, like, I'd like to invite that guy out for drinks kind of a vibe. If that's the kind of person you are naturally, and that's your natural style, don't lose that. But then, when it's time, they become accountable for their work. You know, I keep using this word, but it's so true. It's powerful. You know, it's very powerful.

Callan Harrington  23:31

Yeah, I think, and this is this was definitely an area that I struggled in for sure, and specifically, being friends with my team. And it's interesting, because, you know, we've had people on the show that have looked at this in both angles, where we've had people that are very much "you cannot be friends with them under any circumstances." And you know, and I will say that can make things easier, right?

Rick Fox  23:57

Thats true. That's true.

Callan Harrington  23:58

It's a lot easier to have a tough conversation. But for me, I just- that was never- and it still is not to this day, like I'm still always going to be more on that friendly side. But you are- I totally agree in that. It gets back to the expectations, right?

Rick Fox  24:14

Well, but now let me expand on it. For those that are like, ah, that's gonna be tough. Think about it if, you're a salesperson as an example, I used to have this one guy in particular that he was the coolest dude, like, everybody wanted to be his friend. Every one of his prospects wanted to be his friend. Like, he didn't want to take advantage of the friendship or lose the friendship. And the way I taught him at a individual contributor level was, are you friends with- let's use, give me three examples. Okay, are you friends with Bill, making the name up? Yes, Bill, and I got, you know, I met him at that last conference, and we had a beer, and we just like we bonded, and I'm just like, struggling to get him the like... Okay, so if you're friends, you've earned the right to tell Bill what's what. You've earned the right to say, "Bill, get off your hands and do what's best for your business." And he will respect that, because you're his friend. And it was like this moment where he went, I never really thought about like that. You have friends, like, who's your, who's your best man at your wedding. So and so. Okay. Now if that guy came to you and was like, dude, you're messing up, you need to fix this, would you stop talking to him? Or would you respect, because your friends, that he's telling you something that's valuable? That's the same way you need to look at this. If you're really good at building those relationships, with that build, you've earned some level of challenge. You've earned the right to ask a tough question, to put them on notice that they're not acting as you would expect them to as somebody that has built a relationship. And he just went bananas from there, like his numbers just went through the roof, because he was able to- didn't happen overnight, and again, there's this comfort zone you have to find, because everybody's got to build their muscle. But all of a sudden, it was like, he's like, he can even do it joking. He's like, Callan, man, what the hell are you doing? Dude, you got to get this done. Your business needs this. What are we waiting for? You're right, you're right. Let's- send me the contract. I'll sign it.

Callan Harrington  26:17

Yeah, and a theme that I've kind of picked up on and all these things that you're saying, it's kind of the couple of things are present there, right? It's, one, it's disciplined, in that, if I said this, that means I'm sticking to it. Like, I said, this, I'm doing this, and I'm sure things could happen. But by and large, I'm not deviating from this, and if I do, I'm setting an example that trickles down. And the other theme or piece, and I think this makes great sales reps, is the ability to, let's say respectfully challenge, right? And it's, look, here's where you said you wanted to go, and this is what your goals are, this is the way I always look at it, too. So I love this. Here's what your goals are. Here's what I'm seeing. This doesn't align. Tell me what, like what's missing? Or do I, and you said it perfectly, do I have the goal wrong?

Rick Fox  27:11

Yeah.

Callan Harrington  27:12

We sat down and talked about this, and built this plan on what this is going to take, the plan that you built, and it's not being accomplished? What's your goal?

Rick Fox  27:22

And if you hit somebody with like, we've all seen them or heard of them or worked with them. It's the: you're below, you're failing, through below your number, or, you know, we got a complaint on your like, something, like, that's wrong, you're bad. Like we've all seen that. That's not leadership. That's a power trip. Leadership, to your point, is it's exactly what you said, it is the ability to say, okay, first and foremost, let's try things. Progress over perfection. We don't have to be perfect. And maybe the way we're approaching this is wrong. How can I help you? How can I help you be better? Again, you got to want to help yourself, and you got to be there to grind. If the reason you're not hitting numbers is because you come in at 10:30, you talk to people for an hour and a half, work for a few hours and leave. That's different than: I'm trying all these things, then I'm just not getting there, they're getting stuck at a certain point. And we start to figure that out. We use the word "challenge." Yeah, you read it. If you haven't memorized four or five of the chapters, or the points in the Challenger Sales Model, if you're a salesperson. Like, and I'm not saying all of them, because there's two or three, that I have X'd out, like I don't like that one. But if you haven't taken something from that, it means you haven't worked on- you haven't shot, you haven't gone to the gym and taken a thousand shots to work on your jump shot. Like if you go to the gym, and you're like, I can't make a bucket. It's like, well, when was last time you went and practiced? Well, I've been busy. It's like, why did you expect to make a shot? So if you think about it like that, and again, leaders, we get stuck sometimes in the end. And especially when you're in a deadline, or you're end of quarter, or you're end of year, or something, especially in this in sales organizations, but even more predominantly in PE-backed businesses, where it's do as much as you can for as little as you can, and do it super fast. We get stuck with the end result. And if we just pause, I know it's hard because everything's moving a million miles an hour, in fact you and I even said that when I jumped on this call. I'm like, it's already crazy. And it's, you know, the week's barely even going. But if you pause and say okay, to get there, I'm gonna have to calm myself down, calm my reps down, call my leader down, and find a different way, because this particular way, this iteration isn't working. Progress over perfection. And then you get to a point where you can lead in a way that people are like, it's like I played on teams, I've seen teams be coached where kids were afraid to miss shots, because they get yanked out of the game for missing a shot, which Michael Jordan missed more than half of his shots. If you give them the flexibility and the freedom, whether that's on the court, as a sales rep in your organization, as a leader, to shoot their shot, and know that it might not be perfect, but we're going to take something good out of it and we're going to make it even better some other way. Progress over perfection. Nobody's already perfect. Let's fail and iterate. If we need to do it fast. Again, in your environment. Now you're doing something that they're not probably even used to. And you might get this entirely new, out of like, come out of their shell, and surprise the hell out of everybody in your organization, that this person is now the star that was kept in a box. So think about that. If you're listening in, and you're either maybe that person, and you should have more communication with your leaders of how you want to be communicated with. Or if you are a leader, and you're, you have the opportunity for greatness, whether you lead three people, or 300 or 3000 people, you can impact every single one of those today, tomorrow and their entire future by the way, you either support them, empower them, hold them accountable, build an expectation, help them find their best version of themselves. You do those things, and now you're not only doing good for your company, you're doing good for humans in general. And now, now we're having a really cool conversation.

Callan Harrington  31:27

I love that. And you know, you brought up a really good point, I'll never forget this. It was my going into my junior year of high school, and we're at a summer league basketball game and a new coach just took over. I was point guard. And he was very much like, it's my way or the highway. And he goes, "Callan, I do not want you going down to shoot any threes." I get that ball, they inbound that ball, I throw up an NBA three, first shot, first shot. You know what, though, I made it, he took me out, never played for him again. There's no chance. I couldn't play for the guy. I couldn't play for the guy now.

Rick Fox  32:04

Now look at how directly that correlates to some of the jobs that we've had. Or some of the leaders that we've seen, in the way they put people like that, and you wonder why people leave your organization. Let me shoot my three. And if I miss four or five of them in a row, then come have a conversation with me and say, hey, how many shots have you shot in the last week? You know, like, again, my son, he's eight years old. We did this thing over the summer where it's like you make 10,000 shots this summer. Not layups. 10,000 jumpers. And I'll get you a new pair of basketball shoes. Like that was- I would have gotten them for him anyway, because I'm a I'm a sneaker head, so it wouldn't have been a problem. So living vicariously through his sneaker collection. But the moral of the story was, it was a fun way, and he would take a handful like, he'd take a little bowl, two little bowls with Skittles in them. And he'd make twenty shots, and he'd move his Skittle from the full bowl into the empty bowl. And then he'd shoot however many he wanted on that particular session. And he'd bring it inside and say, "these dad," because he was like seven or eight. So it's like, yeah, that's how many I made. And I go okay, twenty, forty, sixty, okay, that's- you just made 260 shots, go put it on your sheet. And first summer he did it, he made like 10,500. The second summer he did it, he made over 14,000 shots. And that's 14,000 shots that he made, which means he probably took 28,000 shots, which is 28,000 more than almost every other kid around him, and now you wonder why he's playing in college. It's not by accident. These things are on purpose. But I didn't say go do this, or else. I said, you wanted some shoes. Yeah, here's- let's do- what about this is a game? Cool. Let me try something. Again, I lost you at Skittles. I know you've probably already checked out of this conversation, because you're thinking about candy, Callan, but-

Callan Harrington  33:47

I had a humongous Iverson collection too. So I wouldn't-.

Rick Fox  33:51

And sneakers. Don't get me off on a tangent right now. But it was his thing. Like he had something that had a reward to it. We had a system that was also kind of fun and rewarding to get the candy. And like think about if you're sitting there as a leader, how could you put that into the way you work with your teams? And do you think even just like in a room by yourself, because we all know we can get better every day. But if you put that in, would you, can you see a way, or a path to your team being more successful? And the answer is going to be yes.

Callan Harrington  34:25

So last question I have for you, Rick, if you could have a conversation with your younger self, age totally up to you, what would that conversation be? What advice would you give them?

Rick Fox  34:34

So it'd be two things. Number one was I grew up with very, very little money. And so when I first started, like when I started Fox Insurance, and we started growing the business, I went a little crazy with toys, you know, I had two classic cars, and a beautiful boat, and all of these things that I went out and got. So I would tell my younger self first and foremost, wait, because then you can get all that stuff later, when you can actually afford it. But it was this, like, it's a young person's mechanism, and you think you're taking over the world. And then you know, they don't always go your way, if you're especially for an entrepreneur. So that would be the first thing. The second thing would be this piece that I mentioned about leading. And looking at every leader in a different light. It won't be the same voice, it needs to be their voice. So if I could have taught myself that younger, I think I could have impacted more people's lives. Not that I don't feel like I'm proud of what I've done. I'm proud of the people that I've helped. But those would probably be the- when you ask the question, those are the first two things that pop into my head.

Callan Harrington  35:40

Yeah, and I hear you, especially when you're a young leader, and you have energy, you think that I'm just gonna pump people up, and the rest will take care of itself. But reality is, for the people that are exactly like you sure, probably will work, but they're not, it's going to be the exact opposite.

Rick Fox  36:00

And your question was spot on, because you get like, just the sheer math of it is, if I have seventeen teams, that's seventeen personalities, there might be a couple of them that are like you said, like me, or a couple of them that are- but that's a whole hodgepodge. That's a, you know, that is a mixed nuts plate of people doing it a different way. So it's, I think that's the responsibility of leaders that sometimes gets missed. Your job is to trickle down the information and to build the expectation. But I think you should all take on the responsibility of helping leaders be better leaders. And if you do that, I guarantee your organization will win.

Callan Harrington  36:38

I love it, Rick. I can't think of a better stop or a better place to wrap up the show. Thank you again, for coming on. This has been great.

Rick Fox  36:45

Always. Anytime, Callan, man. Keep doing what you're doing. I love everything you got going on.

Callan Harrington  36:49

I appreciate that, Rick.  I hope you enjoyed Rick and I's conversation. I loved hearing all of Rick's stories on leadership. And if you want to learn more about Rick, you could find him on LinkedIn in the show notes. Also, if you liked this episode, you could find me on LinkedIn to let me know. And if you really want to support the show, a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify is very much appreciated. Thanks for listening, everybody, and I'll see you next week.