Ry Walker - Founder and CEO of Tembo: Difficult Moments, The Role of CEO, and Paying it Forward

Ry Walker  0:00

That’s pretty common, too. Where you start with someone’s like, “Oh, I want to build a Customer Success System for dentists,” you know. And then you realize, “Oh, well, actually, in order to get that, you have to have this,” you know. And they go down a level, and that’s usually where success happens. It could be the original idea. You can move left, right, up or down, but usually the first thing you start with isn’t what you win with.

Callan Harrington  0:21

You’re listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that led to their success. I’m your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn’t be more excited that you’re here. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of That Worked. This week, I’m joined by Ry Walker. Ry is the founder and CEO of Tembo. Tembo is the Postgres developer platform for building every data service. Their mission is to collapse the database sprawl of the modern data stack with a unified developer platform. Prior to founding Tembo, Ry was the founder and CEO of Astronomer, which has been a huge success and has raised over $280 million. Ry is a serial entrepreneur, and by his own words, has opinions that go against the grain. And I gotta say, it made for a really, really interesting conversation. You know, we dove straight into discussing the hard moments. And I have to say, he probably gave one of the most honest answers that I’ve heard coming right out of the gate. We also discussed navigating layoffs, which anybody that’s been through those—personally or has executed on them—whatever that might be, it’s always a really, really tough subject. So I really enjoyed that conversation. We also talked about a topic that doesn’t get discussed very much, which is selling your founder shares in the secondary market or as part of an oversubscribed round. Now we go into the details of what exactly an oversubscribed round is, and I think this one is a pretty important subject. Now, you have to be in a really fortunate position to have this opportunity, but it’s one of those things that can really help relieve the financial pressure that comes with founding a business. So many founders have put everything financially they have into the business, and this is a great way to just relieve some of that pressure. And Ry walked through how he did this personally, and I thought it was super interesting. Now, my favorite part of the conversation was talking to Ry about how he’s approaching Tembo differently, having gone through multiple successful startups. We talked about Astronomer, but he also did this at Differential, and he’s done this at a couple of startups. And to hear his approach on how he’s going at Tembo from the beginning, I thought was really interesting. This included his specific view on the job of a CEO, how he empowers his team to handle challenges differently in a number of other areas, and I thought it made for a really interesting segment in the show. So with that, let’s get to the show. So, Ry, this is gonna be one of the more interesting places to start this out. Can you walk us through the story of your interaction with the IRS?

Ry Walker  3:03

Yeah, absolutely. I’ve been an entrepreneur since the 90s—mid-90s, since I was in my early 20s. When I got started, it was the dawn of the internet, so you couldn’t Google things. If you wanted to learn something, you went and bought a book or talked to an old person—those were your two choices. And I didn’t come from a family business, so I didn’t really have any good mentors on how to do various things. When you’re in that scenario, you just kind of do whatever you think you minimally need to do. Related to taxes and accounting and all that kind of stuff—it seemed like a chore versus a fun part of doing business, right? And so, eventually, it was the early 2010s, but I didn’t file my taxes. I was just like, “Fuck it. I didn’t do it.” It could have been around the time, like, Wesley Snipes wasn’t doing it, too. So if you don’t do that one year, then you don’t do it the next year, because you can’t really do one without the other. And so eventually, my company started getting in pretty decent shape. I went to an accountant and just said, “Hey, we gotta go and take care of this.” But that was, you know, literally 10 years ago. I had a really nice exit about three years ago. So, you know, you can go from that kind of crap where you’re just like, “Oh my god, what could happen to me?” You know, this is stupid, but even beyond that—like when we were in the 90s, and I was in business with my wife—we just did paperwork wrong, and eventually, there were knocks on our business. So I’ve had multiple run-ins there. And I don’t know if that’s unusual—I think a lot of people don’t talk about that kind of stuff. But I don’t know, in some ways, that’s the good old days, right? Like, I’ll never have that fun again—that kind of excitement again. But I think the entrepreneurial journey has surprises around every corner. Sometimes it’s good, but almost all the time, it’s not good.

Callan Harrington  4:35

So you’re like, “Okay, we’ve got a couple years here not paying taxes,” and you decided to make this change. Was this something that just kind of built—where you were like, “Okay, I know I should have been doing something for this, and now I have to do something about this because things are happening within the business”? Or was it, “I’m just so heads down, focused, I’m not even gonna bother with it”?

Ry Walker  4:55

I’m pretty sure I got contacted—that was what triggered it. It was like, “Oh, they’re gonna take everything, unless X, Y, or Z happens.” We did a multi-year payment system to pay the back taxes. And it’s trickier—like when you’re self-employed, there’s just a temptation to say, “Oh, I just got a check from a company. Do I really need to send, you know, a good chunk of this to the IRS?” Now, it’s just like a series of that kind of stuff. But I’m pretty sure we got contacted, and it was an existential threat to the family.

Callan Harrington  5:23

Well, the story becomes so much more interesting, especially when we talk about the latter parts of your career. You touched on a little bit where you had a pretty significant exit. But before we get to that point, you started this first business not even three years out of college. Was there something that happened in those three years that just said, “I gotta do this on my own,” or did you always know that you were going to start a business?

Ry Walker  5:43

I dropped out of college after a year and a half at UC—computer science—because I wasn’t learning anything from them. I just thought it was a rip-off. I still feel this way, by the way, about colleges in general. Like, there are professional jobs where you have to have a degree, but if you’re going to be a computer programmer, the best computer programmers I know learned nothing in college and just self-taught themselves most everything.

Callan Harrington  6:04

You grew that business up, and it was your first business at a young age—$5 million in revenue, pretty significant. You ultimately exited that and then took a couple of positions. Was it that you didn’t have kind of the idea on what you wanted to found as your next company? Or at that point, was it, “I don’t even want to found a company”?

Ry Walker  6:20

My first company was called Shark Bites, and it was a web design shop. I sold it when I was like 30 people in a roll-up in 1999. The dot-com bubble burst in 2001, so basically, all my equity in that rolled-up company became worthless. But I got a great amount of experience. Even though we didn’t make much money on that first company, I learned so much. It was more valuable than what you get in an MBA because I had an IRS agent visit my business too. You don’t get that in a typical MBA experience, right? But I also had to hire and fire, and it was just winning customers and taking care of customers—like the whole aspect of the business. So I’m super grateful for that first go-around. The dot-com bubble burst in 2001, meaning internet people were not as important as they once were before that. And so, like, right around that time, a friend of mine—one of my customers—was like, “Hey, I’d love you to come join and help us lead technology in this company.” It was maybe a 20- or 30-person company at the time. Did that for five years, and then another guy—very similar, another Cincinnati entrepreneur—said, “Hey, come do the same thing over here.” So I did that for another five years. And I often talk about those 10 years as my lost years. Time went real fast, it was easy, and I regret it in a lot of ways—not being an entrepreneur during those times.

Callan Harrington  7:31

What prevented you? Was it just being opportunistic? That’s what it was for me—I kept taking the next good opportunity.

Ry Walker  7:37

Yeah, I mean, part of it is I had a growing family, so I was probably being a little more conservative than we were able to be in the start of my career. So, making decent money, less risk—it was interesting. Ironically, after the first one, I was getting ready to start a company—like, after the first five years—and my wife had just had a child, and I had to go work somewhere where there were at least 50 employees. Like, healthcare was screwed then, where just having a kid was a pre-existing condition that wasn’t covered by insurance. So I lasted another five years or so.

Callan Harrington  8:03

So you then co-founded Differential with Tim Metzner, and we talked a lot about the co-founding of Differential in his episode. As I understand it, Differential was a services business, and then you guys were also incubating early-stage startups. One of those startups was Astronomer. I’d love to know—what was the actual inception story of Astronomer?

Ry Walker  8:27

It is so messy. People have to come up with cleaned-up versions of stories so that they’re fun to tell. But the full detail here was, before doing Differential, I had worked with a friend named Ash Maurya—author of Running Lean, a Lean Startup book. He built a tool called User Cycle, which is mentioned in the book. I helped him with that for a short period of time—like a year before Differential. It didn’t really go anywhere. It was like a product that wasn’t winning, you know? And so, I was like, “Hey, I’ll take that product for $0. You can keep 40% equity, I’ll have 60%, and let’s just give User Cycle to Differential, and we’ll build on that and try to revive it.” He agreed to that. Eventually, User Cycle became Astronomer, but we pivoted like two or three times during that company until the product that we ended up winning with.

Callan Harrington  9:10

I’ve seen this exact scenario that you’re talking about play out pretty well. You’re taking something that was built, putting it in a different scenario, and then that can be very successful. What are your thoughts on something like that versus building it purely from scratch?

Ry Walker  9:24

I mean, for us, it was a catalyst to care about a domain, and then once you’re inside the domain, you might pivot a couple times on the solution. That’s what we ended up doing. So the problem with User Cycle was it was too hard to get the data to do the analysis. We were basically just trying to provide what were called Pirate Metrics. Pirate Metrics were important for internet products, but it was super hard to get them to instrument their product to get that data to us. So it was a pivot down the stack—basically into a problem underneath the problem that we were currently trying to solve. And then from there, we actually pivoted yet another time to another problem beneath that. So what Astronomer actually won with was a product that was like two steps lower infrastructurally than what we started with. That’s pretty common, too. Where you start with someone’s like, “Oh, I want to build a Customer Success System for dentists,” you know. And then you realize, “Oh, well, actually, in order to get that, you have to have this,” you know. And they go down a level, and that’s usually where success happens. It could be the original idea—you can move left, right, up or down—but usually, the first thing you start with isn’t what you win with.

Callan Harrington  10:25

So you ultimately left Differential to focus on Astronomer full-time as the founder and CEO. What led to that decision? Was it that you didn’t necessarily want to do the services side, or you just saw, “Hey, there’s something really here, so I’m going to follow this”? Or was there something totally different? What did that look like?

Ry Walker  10:42

One of my business philosophies now is to maximize risk. Burn the ships. Like, okay, Differential’s comfortable. It was basically stagnant for me from a growth standpoint. But I would say that’s half the reason. The other big half is I wanted to do a venture-backed company. Venture capital was becoming all the rage. It’s like an alternative universe. If you’ve ever compared small business world versus venture-backed startup world, they are two different planets, and I wanted to go travel to a different planet. So that’s why we did that. Like I said, it’s higher risk, and I wanted to get into that league.

Callan Harrington  11:13

So you’re running Astronomer. What was the point where things really started to take off? Or was this a slow build all the way to the company that it became?

Ry Walker  11:24

A lot of near-death moments. There were several rounds of layoffs. We thought we had something big, realized we didn’t, cut the team in half, tried again, cut the team in half again. So we did at least two layoffs before we started raising a lot of venture. I would say, since the big venture checks were raised, there had been a couple more layoffs, you know? Layoffs are basically an admission that something’s not working, and let’s extend our runway so we have a greater lifespan. There were so many down moments. I was calling one of my investors, saying, “Look, we’re out of money, out of ideas.” Or maybe we had an idea, but we needed more runway, and we weren’t going to get it from our existing investors. And he’s like, “How much do you need?” I said, “I don’t know. 250K?” And he’s like, “I’ll send you 250K.” I was just floored. I didn’t ask for the money—I was just letting him know that we were at our wits’ end. I remember hanging up that call, going to my partner Tim Brock, and saying, “Hey, AngelPad Tomas is in for another 250K,” and he was just like, “What?” It was like an angel had arrived on the scene. That happens every once in a while. But it was definitely a rollercoaster. If you’re venture-backed, you are on a rollercoaster, and there’s no flat ride ever on a tech startup with burn.

Callan Harrington  12:30

So how did you bounce back from those? And I totally agree—in all the startups I’ve been in that have been successful, we’ve had multiple rounds of layoffs. And one of the best ways I’ve heard this described: we had a coach at one of the startups I was at, and she said, “One thing to know, before you go into a layoff as a leadership team, is that you’ve already gone through the stages of grief. Everybody feels terrible for the people that are let go—there’s no question about that—but you have to be there for your team, because they’re going into those stages of grief right when that happens. Be cognizant of the fact that you’re already through that.” Did you find that to be the case with you?

Ry Walker  13:00

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that’s the tricky part. You’re feeling kind of good that you finally did the hard thing, but everyone else—it’s a fresh cut, right? So yeah, there’s work to be done, for sure, helping everyone understand why. And a lot of times there are questions on, you know, “Why this person, not that person?” You really can’t get a unanimous opinion about that kind of stuff. But yeah, that’s pretty tough. But then, you know, we ended up getting an influx of what I call “whales.” So imagine you’re fishing, and you’ve got a little 20-pound test line, and suddenly a whale comes over and starts to show some interest in your bait. It’d be cool to catch it, but you know you can’t catch it.

And then you think, if I can catch whales, though…. So we literally had these big companies coming around our company. I went out and found a guy—who happened to be in Cincinnati—and hired him as the CEO, and we went whale hunting. It was a big change for the business. But, you know, when the big companies start coming inbound, that’s a good feeling in a tech startup. It doesn’t mean you catch them right away, but we definitely saw an inflection at that point. Did we execute that perfectly? Absolutely not. Was I completely aligned with this guy? No. But it ended up in a great outcome for me personally, and the company’s doing great. It went on to raise $300 million under Joe and his subsequent CEO’s leadership.

Callan Harrington  14:17

I’m actually kind of curious—was it from your angle that you wanted to get somebody in here that could build a company that could handle those whales?

Ry Walker  14:26

If you’ve ever been around enterprise sales, yeah—absolutely. I didn’t want to learn that. I was the wrong CEO for that era because the CEO needs to be involved in those deals. And I had zero experience in that, so let’s bring someone in who can do that. So with Tembo, my new company, I got to see everything. I’ve been around it now, so it’s not as foreign to me. I can be more involved now as CEO in this company when that happens.

Callan Harrington  14:53

Astronomer has been a huge success. You sold your shares in the secondary market during that process. What does that look like?

Ry Walker  15:00

It doesn’t happen very often, but during the ZIRP era—like venture got super overheated in 2021 and 2022, if you remember—stupid rounds were happening. And our rounds were oversubscribed, you know. So, there were more investors that wanted to invest than we had stock available to sell. By that time, I’d already been at Astronomer for six years. I was ready to do something new. And we had hired a new CTO, we had hired heads of product—we had hired professionals for all the jobs I was qualified to do. I was basically the founder emeritus at that point. And they just said, basically, “Hey, do you want to sell some of your shares to JP Morgan?” And I said, “Sure. They can take some of these shares for sure.” So I sold most of my shares at the height of the bubble and feel really smart about that.

Callan Harrington  15:47

I would say for sure. And then, for our listeners who may not be familiar, an oversubscribed round is when you’re raising a certain amount—let’s say you’re selling 20% of the company to raise capital—and you’ve got more investors fighting for that 20%. If you decide you want to open up more than that, oftentimes what you’ll see is the founders will sell a percentage of their shares. Sometimes they’re trying to buy founders out, or it’s just a financial de-risking move. I don’t think founders should have to struggle all the way up, but I’d love to hear your take on this.

Ry Walker  16:23

Well, I think they should wait five years. They should wait until the QSBS tax treatment kicks in. Basically, if you hold a startup investment for five years—if you bought in at a valuation of less than $50 million—you get a different tax treatment. So I think you should wait till then. That’s usually like Series B, let’s say. And I think every founder should sell 5% of their shares at Series B.

Because, you know, when I sold my first batch of shares, it was $340,000. You know, $340,000 is so nice for a family that’s been on salary their whole lives. And I had startup credit card debt—maybe $60K total. So I wiped out that $60K, and suddenly we had $280,000 left. I went and bought the car of my dreams—an 8-series BMW. My wife got her Range Rover she’d had her eyes on. Because we still had jobs and other income, it just reduced so much stress in our family to get that first chunk of money. I think all founders will operate better when they’re a little bit de-stressed. But it can’t be too much of their holdings if they’re still actively involved in the company.

Callan Harrington  17:31

You ultimately sold your shares on the secondary market. At that point, you didn’t have to work anymore. A lot of people struggle with this—and I know that sounds crazy when I say it. But did you find that to be the case? Was that a challenge for you?

Ry Walker  17:43

Yeah, I golfed for six months. It was fun; it was nice. But ultimately, one of the questions that was nagging me was, was that luck? Did I just get lucky, or did I have some level of skill? If you create two companies, you have a pretty good feeling that it’s skill, not luck. Or talent, or whatever you want to call it. But, I mean, this new company, Tembo, is 10 times harder to execute than Astronomer was. It’s in a red ocean. I basically tell people, “We’re the next Oracle.” That’s the goal—to be the next Oracle. And that’s, I mean, legitimately like a $10 billion, $100 billion valuation if we execute properly. And why am I doing that? That’s what my wife would ask.

Callan Harrington  18:19

That’s what I want to know!

Ry Walker  18:21

Yeah, it’s just the sport I play. You know? It’s fun. It’s the thing I’m best at. And I’d say, if I fail, it doesn’t matter. You know, I’ll have gotten some salary for a few years. So we’re two years into it now, and it’s been a great experience. I’d say we’re on track, but our revenue is like 0.01% of what I need it to be. So it’s a big challenge, but I can’t imagine doing anything else with my time at this point. Yeah, this will be my last company, though—my last venture-backed company. I don’t know what I’ll do next, but this one is it.

Callan Harrington  19:03

What have you done differently when starting this one out than what you’ve done previously?

Ry Walker  19:09

A couple things. Number one, I read this somewhere—I’m stealing this from somebody, and it’s uncredited—but I believe the CEO has three jobs: fundraising, recruiting, and keeping the vision clear. Don’t run out of money. Make sure you have the best talent. And make sure everyone knows what the hell we’re working on. It’s very easy, at an early-stage startup, for the vision to get fuzzy. And honestly, it’s still fuzzy. I’m always fighting for clarity. But some things are hard to clarify, especially early stage because you don’t have all the facts yet. The other thing is, I’ve learned how to empower my team differently. Like, I intentionally give people responsibility without setting the stage for them. I got feedback from my team recently that they didn’t know I’d delegated certain things. And I told my chief of staff, “Make sure they know that’s intentional.” It’s easier on me, and it’s harder on them. If you’re going to work for me, you have to be able to communicate that I told you to do something and deal with your coworkers. That’s not one of my three jobs. I think that approach builds stronger leaders. And I want a strong team—people who can handle the hard stuff.

Callan Harrington  20:35

Is that a factor of—that’s the expectation of the role in that leadership position? Or is it a factor of, “If you’re going to make it to meet that type of expectation, then I need you to do this”? Or is it something totally different?

Ry Walker  20:50

It’s an expectation of, in a company where Ry Walker is the CEO, you have to be able to do that. If you’re around me, I’m going to tell you to do things, and I’m not going to clear the way for you, because that’s something you should be able to do for yourself. And yeah, if you can’t do that, then you’re probably not a good fit. But you get stronger by trying to do it. And if everybody’s dealing with me the same way, your coworkers—your colleagues—should be like, “Oh yeah, man, I had the same problem.” They should be able to coach you through it, too. I just think, I’m looking for strong leaders. We need to build strong leaders. Compare that to working at Google or Amazon, or the big Silicon Valley companies—those jobs, comparatively, are easy. So I’m just trying to make things harder on them and easier on me, so I can focus my energy on the stuff that only I can do, versus things that they should be able to do for themselves.

Callan Harrington  21:44

Do you experience turnover with that style? Or do you have a process in place where you’re bringing on people, setting that expectation right out of the gate, and they’re opting in and saying, “This is exactly what I want”?

Ry Walker  21:55

I think it will create turnover, and it’ll create the right turnover. This is the good old days of Tembo—next year is harder. The year after that is harder, you know? It’s only getting harder from here. The first few years of a startup might seem hard, but it’s actually fun. And you’re going to look back at it and be like, “Man, that was awesome. That was so easy compared to what we’re doing now.”

Callan Harrington  22:15

Why do you think that is? Is that because that’s what excites you?

Ry Walker  22:19

No, I think it’s true for most people. I think people are nostalgic for when they started something. Probably people look at their first marathon with a bunch of fondness, even though it’s probably the hardest marathon they ever did. But it’s almost like they love it because it was so hard. They can never get that back again, you know? The other thing is, you know, the early-stage people might not be a fit for later-stage realities. And so having that turnover is actually, I think, somewhat healthy to the company, versus expecting our first 30 employees to still be there four years from now. I don’t know what percentage should still be there, but maybe they should be off doing their next startup, you know?

Callan Harrington  22:55

Yeah, and you’ll typically start to see that exodus happen, especially after an exit of some sort, where the startup people move on. So, Ry, you mentioned this is going to be your last company. You’re running this company the way that you want to run it. What comes next for you personally?

Ry Walker  23:10

Well, personally, I’m building a house. I’m not personally building the house, but I’m having a house built. I’m excited to move into that. I’ve got some children who are just starting their careers. I’m excited to help them, to the extent that I can. And then there’s also just the whole Cincinnati and Ohio startup ecosystem, which I’m more and more involved in and care about. So I’m just trying to pay it forward. I basically say I want to help 20 people accomplish what I’ve accomplished after this. And Tembo is a vehicle to make that happen.

Callan Harrington  23:40

When you say 20 people, is that 20 founders that are doing what you’ve done? Or could it be 20 people that joined Tembo who achieve financial independence after its success?

Ry Walker  23:48

It’s kind of a loose objective. I don’t have too many rules around it. But basically, yeah, I mean, I think it would be fun to have 20 people—and it doesn’t have to be in Cincinnati—but ideally in and around here, who are like, “Oh yeah, I got here, too.” We don’t have enough independently wealthy tech founders in our ecosystem here. It’s mostly people with money, or they did a business, but it wasn’t a venture-backed company, you know? So I just think, if we want the next person like me to have a better path, I have to do a little bit of plowing and tilling of the ecosystem.

Callan Harrington  24:19

Absolutely—start the flywheel, which is what it takes. Take those exits and then those founders reinvesting. So, Ry, last question I have for you here is: If you could have a conversation with your younger self—age totally up to you—what would that conversation be? What advice would you give them?

Ry Walker  24:35

Well, I used to have a thought experiment when I was younger and struggling: Would I fast-forward time? Like, here’s the question—you’re 25, and you know that at age 45, you’re going to hit it. Would you just fast-forward to that spot? Back then, I would have said, “Yeah, I probably would.” The struggle is tough, man. As an entrepreneur, you don’t know if you’re going to be a successful entrepreneur or a washout. It’s really hard to predict that. And yeah, I would just say, “The journey is the destination.” It’s all about enjoying the ride as you’re going through it. And that’s why I’m really enjoying Tembo. It’s the last company I’m going to do—that’s special. I should really savor it and care about it. The thing I have perspective on now is that the journey is really what you should focus on. Because once you get somewhere—to a destination, to a checkbook amount—don’t get me wrong, it’s great, but it’s almost like you’re now in this weird universe. It’s not what you expected, and it’s not as good as when you were fighting your way through everything.

Callan Harrington  26:17

Yeah, it’s almost like the reality didn’t meet the expectation of how you thought it would feel. I always talk about this saying, “Money doesn’t buy you happiness.” I completely disagree with that.

Ry Walker  26:27

Oh, I disagree, too.

Callan Harrington  26:29

It buys you freedom, opportunity, and peace of mind, and that directly correlates to happiness.

Ry Walker  26:33

Yeah, definitely. And you’re right—there’s a curve where it stops being one-to-one, but getting to that point of comfort? That’s worth chasing. Yeah, after you get to a certain amount of comfort—where you can go to any restaurant you want, take any trip, or pay any amount and you don’t feel bad at the end of it—it’s really nice. It takes quite a bit of money to feel that way. But then, if you look at it and think, “Ah, compared to my net worth, this bill is nothing,” that’s another level of comfort.

Callan Harrington  27:11

I love it. And I love it even more when we look at where we started this conversation.

Ry Walker  27:17

Yeah, that’s quite the range of experience, right? From worrying about taxes and getting visits from the IRS to eventually selling shares and being in a position to invest in other people. To be a founder, to be a creator and a starter—it’s a grind, but I truly believe that if you’re diligent and work at a business for years and years, you’re going to get to an above-average outcome. Even if it’s a plumbing company—I’m not trying to disparage that in any way—you can build a great business with any trade. If you just stick with it, work hard, and stay smart, you can win.

Callan Harrington  27:43

Absolutely. Ry, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you again for sharing your story and insights.

Ry Walker  27:50

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

Callan Harrington  27:52

I hope you enjoyed Ry and I’s conversation. Like I said in the beginning, Ry is totally an open book, and I loved hearing about the changes he’s made when founding Tembo based on his experience with his previous startups. If you want to learn more about Ry, you can find him on LinkedIn—his link is in the show notes. Also, if you liked this episode, you can find me on LinkedIn to let me know. And if you really want to support the show, a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify is very much appreciated. Thanks for listening, everybody, and I’ll see you next week.