Greg Kallman - Founder of FanAmp: Influencer Marketing, Community Building, and Idea Validation

Greg Kallman  00:00

The first thing you realize is that there's a lot of founders who, they raise money the first time and the company went under, and then they just raised it again, because they were successful at doing that. They could execute, but the idea didn't work, and the timing, there's so many factors. I think it's, you get your self- you pick yourself up, and you keep going, and like, people actually don't look at that like it's a bad thing. Like don't go embezzle money, or don't go do something malicious, but if you gave it a go, and like, people know your reputation, then there's no risk, so to speak. Obviously, like, you could lose money or other things. But like, if you're comfortable with that, then there's no actual career risk to you. Just go try.

Callan Harrington  00:33

You're listening to That Worked, a show that breaks down the careers of top founders and executives and pulls out those key items that led to their success. I'm your host, Callan Harrington, founder of Flashgrowth, and I couldn't be more excited that you're here. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of That Worked. This week I'm joined by Greg Kallman. Greg is the founder of FanAmp, the community hub for all things Formula 1. FanAmp connects fans around the world with each other and their favorite motorsport creators, track guides, and daily news. Before launching FanAmp, Greg spent twelve years advising C-suite executives and cross functional teams in the US, Europe, and Asia at Boston Consulting Group, BCG, and JP Morgan. We dove into a lot of my favorite topics. We talked about Greg's process for validating new product ideas, and also how he stays focused on his ICP, his ideal customer profile, once he's uncovered that. To me, staying focused on your ICP is so important, and at the same time, it is so difficult to do. One area of our conversation that I thought was super interesting was hearing Greg's process for working with influencers and content creators. Many people want to do this, but struggle with actually executing on it. The reality is it can be really tough to pull off. And I thought Greg gave a great breakdown on how they have been able to successfully pull this off. We also hit on one of my favorite early stage topics, getting out in the field and being with your prospects and customers in person. In many scenarios. It's one of those things that don't scale, but are so important to do in the early stages. To me, it's one of the best ways to get early traction, and I loved hearing how Greg has applied this at FanAmp. So with that, let's get to the show. Greg, I'm excited to dive into this for a number of reasons, which we'll get into. But to kick this off, tell us about the Austin Grand Prix.

Greg Kallman  02:57

Okay, so we're going back in time a little bit. This is, to set the stage, this would be 2022, the fall 2022, which would be when basically like the, whatever you want to call it, the alpha, beta, gamma, that initial like first version of the app was live and a close group of friends and family effectively were using it. And you know, everyone always talks about like, how do you get your first users. And getting my brother and my parents to sign up, who I talked to every day about this, thankfully, was easy. I didn't have to pay them. The people after that, you know, as you kind of draw the circle bigger, was harder. And for me, I was thinking of like, alright, what's the best way to do this. And my first thought was Austin was the race that lined up as the first US race after we had this thing available to people. Let's go down and just shake hands, kiss babies, like try and do whatever we can in person to do this, because that's what it's going to take. It's going to take the, you know, things that don't scale approach, and that all that time and efforts there. So I begged my brother and a friend of mine to go down with me, and they were amazing to immediately jump in. And then I thought about what are things that are typical at like, American sporting events, and one of those things is tailgating. And so I thought about some of the memes that were funny to me related to F1, and ended up getting this massive like five foot by six foot sign of one of these drivers, and put it together, and like it was in bright FanAmp orange, and had that. We bought a bunch of beer, and water, and snacks, and rented a car. I bought a parking pass. I didn't have tickets to the race. I just wanted to be there and like try and meet people and solicit them. And we show up at the Circuit of the Americas with this big car, and the first thing we find out is tailgating is completely prohibited at the race. Like, they don't do it. It's not something that they allow. We had a car full of all this stuff in coolers, that we bought landing in Austin, and I guess for those listening, like, I live in New York City. So like, it wasn't that this was in our backyard; like, we traveled for this. And so we showed up with all this stuff, and we couldn't do anything with it. And it was incredibly awkward even like trying to go up to people with little cards that we made. I remember the nerves and like, almost panicking, like in a dry, like a whatever, like a sweat, and just like through my clothing, like afraid to go up and try and solicit people. And so it was just a very, like, out of body, weird experience. You know, talk about being embarrassed, or like thinking like you're on stage with- you're like, naked, like it was just weird. And so the lesson that I learned from that is, okay, well, what can we do to make this happen? And how do we make this a success. And so we spent the rest of that race weekend, trying different things to be in front of people in ways that were authentic, but that also worked, and weren't prohibited. So we drove around the city, we went in front of some lines in places where people were congregating and we ended up finding a couple of things that actually worked for us. But that was like my first effort ever, in trying to get people to sign up that I didn't know. And that was a wake up call for sure.

Callan Harrington  06:04

Well, I think that's so interesting, because it's a B2C product, right? It's not like you can just go on LinkedIn, find out who all are decision makers at this particular company, and cold call, cold email them. And this is one of the things I was super curious about is how did you start to get that initial traction?

Greg Kallman  06:20

I think it's- the best way to say it would be a variation of that Austin experience. We've done a lot. The whole basis of this and getting started with it was not done to just say, hey, we want to be another news platform or a news site. From the beginning, the thought has always been community first. And so that's meant literally going and meeting people, and being face to face with them, and having those conversations, and really building relationships, because I think the relationships will create an enduring business, versus something that's a flash in the pan or never takes off. And so to your question, a lot of getting those early users has been just being in Austin. It wasn't being at the track, but it would be, you know, after the fact, on Rainey Street or elsewhere, like talking to people, or going to like, where when people were heading to the track, going and meeting them there, and just saying, hey, this is what we have; we'd love for you to check it out. And through that, through going to multiple races after that point in time, and through finding those places where people are, and listening to their story, it started to open up like true- I was thinking about this at the end of the year- but true friendships with people who are in this space, who have been there well beyond the time that I have, who really care about it, and who are the kinds of people that we ultimately want to serve anyway. And so having these, like actual friendships, is what starts to unlock that those concentric circles, or those ever-expanding circles of new people to sign up. And so it's really been that, it's just been focusing on community at the core of it, and then continuing to iterate on the product as fast as we can, with different features or things that just make them happy.

Callan Harrington  08:02

Yeah, I think it's underutilized, going offline, to take people online, and leveraging in-person to get those. And in yours, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's you naturally had the segment that you wanted, the people that cared so much about F1, that they're going to the race, whether or not that they are actually attending it or not. They just wanted to be in that area so bad. Did you find that to be the case? Was that intentional, for that reason, specifically?

Greg Kallman  08:28

Like for, you mean for going to the races? Like why we went for that?

Callan Harrington  08:31

Yeah, was it that this is how we reach the superfans, like these are our absolute ideal customer profile?

Greg Kallman  08:36

Without a doubt. I mean, it's that, and then the other side of it is you just learn a lot from the experience. And there's so much that we've seen, and done, and added, and iterated on through this journey. Because we spent the time sitting next to these people. I forget the number exactly, but I think I ended up going to eight or nine races last year. And at every race, I think I learned something different or left with a idea for something to add or to change. And even little things like, you know, it gets a bit technical, but how the application loads data, and what data do you need to have available if someone has issues or not. The simple example would be, if we have a chat, which we do, you know, I ride the subway to the place I work out of, or at the track, we have internet issues. So how do you manage for that? And is there a better way to sequence certain things? Or is there a way to change the user experience to fit those behaviors better? And so all of that was learning that comes from, not just using the product, but like literally being there with the people who are using it, and just observing them and figuring out what their needs are. So it's been really, really incredibly valuable and the best one of the best decisions we've made so far.

Callan Harrington  09:45

Yeah, I love that personally, because that was always- whenever within the startups that I was at, when I'm working with people today, it's the same. When I would go make a site visit, right, actually go to the site and for example, let's say it was an insurance agency, and to go see how the people are actually using the different systems. How are they interacting with the customers? And you know, a lot of times we think, well, we could do that over Zoom. We could just do a screen share. There's just something different about being there in person and seeing the little nuances. Even as something as small as hey, everybody goes on break at one o'clock here as opposed to noon. That sounds dumb. But it's, that's a significant difference. And when, like, how I'm planning my outreach strategy and everything else, what I'm thinking about with the product. So yeah, it's just there's something different when you're live. And it's, to your point of doing things unscalable that don't scale in the early stages, you have to get over that hump. So I think that's such a great example. To pull it back a little bit, what led you to this? Why FanAmp? Why found this company?

Greg Kallman  10:47

How long do you have on that one? (laughs)

Callan Harrington  10:49

We have six hours? (laughs)

Greg Kallman  10:52

All right, well, the editor is gonna have a lot of work. There's a lot of things that came together on that. Some of it is career, either experience or confidence, maybe in both ways. Some of it is personal interest, like so from a career perspective, my background, I started at JPMorgan I ended up going to BCG after. And in both of those cases, I always gravitated to roles of, call it either consumer research or understanding how these businesses work, and then coming up with an actual sort of strategy or implementation plan against the learnings. And then my default is always execution. I love and get the most excited when then you can actually go and action it, when you can talk to different stakeholders and get them aligned, and then you really go out and get it going. And I realized the only thing holding me back, in whatever doing it was, whether it was doing it for someone else or doing it for myself, the thing that was holding me back was myself and taking the leap. And there was a guy at JPMorgan, who I started under who was wonderful, and he's one of their top performers. And he's been an amazing person to learn from. But he started off, when we first started in the private bank, saying everyone puts their pants on the same way in the morning. And it really resonated with me, because at the end of the day, like there's so many accolades and things that people have, but you're also worth something, and you just have to have the confidence to go after it. And so from a career perspective, I looked around at my brother and friends who are huge sports fans, and I noticed that whenever they were watching something or engaging in something, they were all doing it from 100 different places. They were on multiple different social media platforms, they were on multiple different news sites, and they were talking to each other with GroupMe and text message and Slack. And it just felt like to me that there should be this home or hub for people to come together on. And I just started drawing that out. And at first it started in the video game space, and then it evolved into this traditional sports space. And I like, had post-it notes on my windows, and I was iterating through the mock ups, and I just fell in love with the idea of doing this. And every day, I was more and more excited to try it, and so I just embraced it. And that was the thing I focused on. And so we're here now, as a result of that, and happy to answer pieces or bits and pieces on that. But like that was the general genesis, was like the confidence in myself. And then I just really fell in love with trying to make this a better experience for people.

Callan Harrington  13:16

So I've got a ton of follow up questions on this. When you say you took a year off, or when you took some time off to BCG, and you were mostly playing World of Warcraft, that's what you wanted to do? Were you trying to do that professionally?

Greg Kallman  13:28

Well, so it was in the first year of COVID. And when COVID started, my project that I was on died, the work that we- or, I guess, stopped, I should say, because of the situation, and we weren't sure what was going to happen. And I ended up working on another project that was COVID-related. It was helping a bank with patient protection loans for small businesses, and honestly, like incredibly gratifying, but the amount of work that went into that, it was a bicoastal team that I was running, we were up at seven or eight in the morning on calls till two in the morning, every day for three months. It was a lot of work, not just because like there were a lot of stakeholders with the client, and it's a bank, so you can understand there's always lots of pain points, but also too every Friday, the SBA would change the regulations or revise how they were going to get a loan. It's like, we would basically get to Friday at 8pm and be like alright, like I'm gonna get a little bit of sleep, and the news would change that things would have to evolve. And so Saturday morning, we're back on calls, and that kept going for three months. So at the end of that period, we got something out that was great, but I was tired and needed a break. And BCG, there's a lot of things, you know, they work people very hard. I think you get a lot out of it. I would recommend it to anyone. One of the things that's really great about them is there are these opportunities for personal, I guess like, development is not the right word, but they call it "time for you" basically, literally for that. And so I took basically a sabbatical to just reset and figure out, like, where do I want to go next? Do I have any things in mind? I started taking some Spanish lessons, and kept doing that, and just played video games, because to me, it was like my release to reset. And in that time, I was doing a bit of reflection about what I wanted to do in my career. But honestly, like the gaming and the Spanish lessons ended up filling my time and working out. And then I was just back to work.

Callan Harrington  15:19

What was the turning point on giving you the confidence that you could do this?

Greg Kallman  15:23

So there was a project I've worked on out of, with BCG as well, but out of London, and we were helping a firm design, and develop, and then launch a consumer investment application. And that was a really amazing experience, because the team was multifaceted from user experience researchers and designers, to operational focus people, to like actual tech focus people. What does the tech stack need to be? All of these things. So from that, I saw what felt like the end-to-end, or what was, frankly, the end-to-end experience of developing an application from the literal starting point. Minus like, having the initial idea, because there was a team that had started on that piece to begin with. And so that was amazing. I had never been on something that was so comprehensive like that. And I just saw through that work. And as I was working on, you know, how do we execute on that? What regulators do we have to talk to? How do we net- like, it just became clear to me that at the end of the day, all the consulting work, all the work from JP Morgan, with these large scale tech projects, it was all the same as starting this business. But basically, it's just harder, or you have less resources, and you just have to ask a lot of questions, and call in a lot of favors from people who know better than you, to put structure around what is just effectively ambiguity. So that gave me a lot of confidence. And then that paycheck protection loan was another variation of it. Because, you know, we would be mocking up user flows and picking out like, this is the button, and this is what the data input structure needs to be like, and this is why it needs to be phrased like that. And, you know, these are the, how you navigate it. And so just between those things, I saw that like building a digital product, I saw what it would take. And then yeah, the rest was the confidence of saying, or like the courage to say, hey, let's just go do it.

Callan Harrington  17:10

Yeah, I'm curious, do you think that you would have done this in the time that you did, if you did not take that sabbatical?

Greg Kallman  17:17

You know, I think the answer to the question is yes. The answer is yes. I think maybe the flavor would change, or it would look a little bit different. But what that sabbatical did was give me the breathing room to step back. But I didn't end up leaving, I ended up going back to BCG and working for many more months, and then in the new year, decided that it was time to move on. And in that period was when I started, I have a like an old PowerPoint on my computer of all these different ideas that I was going through at the time. And I was literally- I remember being at my parents place down in Florida, and I remember, literally like writing out, sitting by the pool and like looking, oh, health care, I'm going to need health care now that I'm quitting. Like, what is that experience like to me, because I find it confusing as hell. I'm sure other people do. What's out there? And I would literally just start writing notes down and looking through market research reports. And so this was one of the things that was in that pool that ended up coming out of it. But that ideation and all that came a bit later. I think I was using it as a way to see are there are other kinds of companies or businesses that I want to work for where I'd be inspired or excited. And just by the virtue of like, continuing to write it out for myself, I just got most excited about the thing that was in my head versus what was in someone else's head.

Callan Harrington  18:29

Yeah, I want to circle back to that specific topic as well. You know, what's interesting is, I went through something a little bit similar. Different in that we were- I was at a startup, really high pressure situation, ended up not working out, we lost our lead Series A investor at the 25th hour, and the company really wound down from there. And that was like super hard on me personally. That was the first time it was really like, oh, this really didn't work and put a lot of energy, a lot of effort into it. But I took kind of a sabbatical, a couple months off, where one of the things that I found was, during like the first couple of weeks, it was like nothing really changed. It was just I'm still super high strung on whatever it is, like I'm thinking about just jumping right back into the next thing. And then after about two weeks, when I really took a step back, then it kind of opened up like wait a minute, you don't have to just go back into right what you were doing. And what's funny is, similar to yourself, I went to a venture-backed startup. I was fortunate that exited after a couple of years, but that's when it was like, okay, I already knew I wanted to start a company that was established during this sabbatical. And then this was almost kind of that, we're going to do this, we're going to do this as good as we possibly can, and then leave. That's why I was curious on that. But it sounds like you had something similar in that regard. Did I hear that right?

Greg Kallman  19:42

Yeah, no, absolutely. What gave you the confidence to start it yourself? Was there a specific moment either at that next startup or...

Callan Harrington  19:50

Good question. For me, I believe that it was- well, it was two things, and I wish- I'd love to say it was a pure kind of confidence thing. I think for me it was, I always took the next good opportunity. I was very, very, very opportunistic throughout my career to that point. And I've got no regrets about doing it that way. But I knew I wasn't doing what I wanted to ultimately be doing. And I wasn't getting myself any closer to going on that track, I was on this, go, next job, take a CRO role, then try to get into the CEO role, or take a CRO role at a bigger company. And it just really wasn't where my passion was, I always wanted to start something more, and also explore the creative side more, like the stand up, the improv, all that kind of stuff as well. I just wasn't going to do that on the track that I was in. But I really- it took kind of like an ultimate moment of, it was more: what am I doing? I've done this every single time. I'm almost about to take the next good opportunity. And I'm very fortunate, my girlfriend really pushed me pretty hard on saying the same things. What are you doing? So for me, that's what it was. And I ultimately quit without having any kind of pipeline, without really having any idea. I had some basic ideas, but I just kind of was like you got to do it. Like, I can't go to the shallow end and walk to the deep end, I have to jump straight into the deep end. And that was the realization. That's what I did. But otherwise, I don't- I would just continue on that same track. I'm positive of it.

Greg Kallman  21:12

Yeah, a million percent. And I think it's right. I mean, it's- I don't want to speak for you, but I felt like when I left, it was a position of privilege to be able to do that without like waking up the next day and being panicked. Though, that's not to say there weren't nights with a lot of anxiety almost immediately after leaving, because it's this unknown. But I do think that that's important, is like, if you want to do that, or even if you're thinking about doing it, it's worth it. But you've got to have that cushion, or whatever it is that you need to feel comfortable. And then you just have to embrace the fact that for a month or two months, you need some time to decompress. And then you can really figure out what's going to make you the happiest, and just start going after it.

Callan Harrington  21:48

Oh, I totally agree with that. That's the beauty about if you know that you want to be a founder, or have any thoughts, like I always recommend save as much money as you can. Give yourself the opportunity to be able to do that, where you're not forced into a situation, because you may not want to raise capital for that. And if you don't want to do that, and you don't have money saved, that's gonna be pretty tough to do. Not to say can't be done. It's just going to be harder. But any rate, to fast forward a little bit, one of the things I'm really curious about is in doing the research on the show, you talked, I've seen you've talked a few times about your consumer research process. One, I'm curious what your process is in general. And also what did that look like for FanAmp? How did you research this idea before going into it?

Greg Kallman  22:27

Yeah, so it started with back at that, like when I was building that PowerPoint, I was talking to people about a lot of different things. I remember talking to a friend of mine who has had a lot of like independent contractor roles, and learning about his like healthcare experience, all that. So some of it just started with just general conversations to say, hey, like, what is this experience like to you? And so when this was early days, it was starting around eSports, and people just talking about that experience, they follow it, what teams, what are the use, all of that. And also just like looking at what the experiences are that are out there. And once it got into the vein of traditional sports, so NFL, NBA all of those things, I started finding people who are big sports fans, and just learning from them. And that helped me frame a set of questions, or understand and kind of draw through line between different things that I was hearing, that I wanted to dig in on more, that I had also seen personally like, what what sparked me to go down this path. So, as an example, the notion of fragmentation. A lot of people I would talk to would have multiple different applications or would be in different places to follow the exact same thing. So they all loved football, but they were all in different places. So I wanted to understand that. So I laid out a series of questions, and went through basically, after those initial early qualitative discussions, framed up a quantitative survey to send out. So at the time, I was still at BCG. There's a very big culture of sharing these surveys. So I sent it to friends and family, but I also sent it within the US BCG network, and said, you know, here's a whatever ten minute survey, I'm giving away a gift card for it, would love input, and ended up with about 200 people across, you know, friends and family and this network, who took this quantitative survey. And I literally framed it using a tool that we had used with clients. It was the same structure and same length, the detail was there, the types of questions were there, the ratings, the free text, all of that. And so I looked at the results of that, and I wasn't looking for this like holy shit moment of like, oh, this data points to one million per cent, so this is a given. To me it was: is my gut on the right track, seeing this in the numbers and what people are saying? And after that, I then took the original sort of like interview guide, and refined it a bit, and then went and actually had another round of qualitative interviews, to press on some of the things that I had seen. So on that fragmentation point, if I was seeing that in the numbers with people using multiple applications, understanding which ones they're using, why, and then digging into it with people who answered that within that survey. So it was a mixture of like qualitative into quantitative into qualitative. And the result of that was to give me the confidence to keep going, to feel like the numbers were pointing in than what I had seen. And to go beyond like what a market research report would say, or what a news article on Forbes would say, like seeing it firsthand.

Callan Harrington  25:27

Gotcha. So if I'm hearing that it's, you're starting out, you have an idea, you're building a set of qualitative questions around this idea. And then once you've kind of got the- if this is still leading down that path of validation, then you're setting out the quantitative questions to really kind of narrow this thing down. Is that right? Did I hear that correctly?

Greg Kallman  25:47

Yeah. Going through the quant. And then coming back, once you have that, and you've analyzed it, and doing another round of qualitative, to dig into the areas that you've observed, that you find to be important, things that may not make sense, whatever it is. Because going through and actually like, asking the follow up, especially if people who filled out that quantitative survey gives you the color that you're lacking when someone's just answering some questions.

Callan Harrington  26:10

Yeah, I love that. And funny enough, Lizzie Alden, who introduced us, she said something very similar, has a very similar process for that. And she said, that I really liked, was she's used this that idea as like, that's the first draft and then going out and using these surveys to validate it. And it sounds like you've got a very similar process, if I'm hearing you.

Greg Kallman  26:29

Yeah, 100%. And she does a lot that's incredibly thoughtful. And I think her notion, too, I think she was talking about this with you, and tell me if I'm wrong, but trying to balance how in-depth you're going with that gut check. I really tried to strike a balance with that here. Again, we weren't going to have something, I didn't think, especially for a consumer product, that was going to be this, we do this research, and it's just so obvious in the numbers, like you have to kind of balance what you're seeing, what you're hearing, and even the observations of people in-person, to continue to say you're on the right track, and then using that gut check against what's coming back in the numbers and the conversations, I think is important. Obviously, try not to be biased, but that's the focus.

Callan Harrington  27:09

Yeah. So I have a question. Why start with- you have a blue ocean here, you could do sports, I've heard you talk about different events, like creating these communities around watching The Bachelor or whatever, Love Island, or whatever that might be. Why F1?

Greg Kallman  27:25

So, there's a lot to the F1 business beyond like, it's getting popular in the US, or has blown up in popularity in the US, the structure of the calendar, the type of consumer who follows it, the global nature of it, there's a lot of different things that really come together in this perfect marriage with that F1. So that's exciting, just from an analytical perspective. And then from a personal passion perspective, you know, I'm a new fan to the sport as of, at this point, two years ago now. So I'm still new. But as soon as a friend of mine talked me into watching a race or two, and then starting with that Netflix series, which was an incredible marketing play by them, I just fell in love with it. Because of the technical nature of it. I would watch football games with friends in college or post college and like, it's fun. I always found hockey to be really exciting because of the the nature and the pace. But it didn't click for me as much as this like, I guess, I've got a curiosity bone, or whatever it is. So the technical and like the STEM side of this sport, I think it's incredibly cool. And watching twenty guys change a tire in sub two seconds on a car that just was going 200 miles an hour. Like there's something incredible about that. And so I saw that piece of it, and I was hooked. And between that and like, the analytical, why is F1 a good business to start in, those two things together was like, alright, this is the place that you can mix passion with sensible business and get going, versus any of the other sports that are out there.

Callan Harrington  28:59

Yeah, it's a super interesting sport. I'm starting to get into it. Don't even ask me like my favorite racer, because I have none. But it is super, it is super interesting to me. It is so much different. Like I remember I went to a NASCAR race before, which actually the experience of that was awesome. I would have never guessed. I mean, it's totally- it's just worth it for like, the experience. But I really want to go to F1, because I've heard F1 is phenomenal, obviously like what they're doing is pretty crazy. So, one of the things I'm super curious about is, you guys- now,if I understand this, a lot of the things that helped you kind of get to that next level, is really building these partnerships with different influencers within the space is that correct?

Greg Kallman  29:41

Yeah, yeah. Influencers, different brands, yeah.

Callan Harrington  29:43

Walk us through that.

Greg Kallman  29:44

Community leaders, I guess, effectively. Right? In different capacities.

Callan Harrington  29:47

Yeah, totally. And, I guess I hate to use the word influencer, but how do you build those partnerships? How did you find them? And then, I know a lot of people, when it comes to influencer marketing just in general, they struggle with it. Some people are very successful with it, some people are not. What did you find that really made those relationships successful? And win-wins, I guess, for both sides, because otherwise they won't continue to do it.

Greg Kallman  30:09

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like, we've been incredibly thoughtful with the people that we've been working with, and intentional, and we're not going out and trying to have 100 new faces every month, because the biggest thing for me since the beginning of this has been community at the core of it, and truly authentic relationships. And so, I've always showed up with a spirit of service. And what I mean by that is, every relationship we've entered into has always been around, how do we just make you guys feel awesome, appear awesome, like more than you are? Right? Like these people are talented and doing it already? But how do we just show up and be an advocate for you? And every one of those conversations has always been nuanced. And the end result of it has always been nuanced. To give you an example, we spoke with some creators who are focused on F1 fantasy. One is an excellent website writer, the other one produces great YouTube content. So they're complementary. And through the evolution of those conversations, we started producing and hosting a show before, like, at the start of the race week, like what to expect for fantasy, you know, the teams, what they might be bringing, what the track might mean for the different cars. And then before the qualifying session, doing an actual live show, where they're picking their lineups and interacting with their audience. And we did that because we wanted to make them have the best possible fantasy experience for their community that they could. You might say, hey, like, that's on YouTube, that's not in FanAmp, to start all these things. But to me, that's okay. Because we're actually building relationship and driving value for the people that we partner with. And I want that to be true of anyone we work with. And so having that mindset, I think, has been the big key, because that means that at the end of the day, like these are actual relationships, and like I said, friends, and people that we can collaborate with, versus just used as this, you know, seeing them as like a utility that we pay them X amount of money, and they just share a post, and that's it. Right? I don't want that. That doesn't make sense.

Callan Harrington  32:13

I think that's great advice. So what I'm hearing you say is, you're building a true partnership with them, as opposed to a transactional relationship.

Greg Kallman  32:20

Yeah, exactly. Said better than me.

Callan Harrington  32:23

No, I really appreciate the example. Because I think that's something a lot of people say and you hear a lot too. Well, you've got to add a lot of value, but what specifically, right, like what value? Because when you think about it, the creator that has an audience, is bringing, especially in the early stages, they're gonna bring a lot more value. So you're like, how can you get creative in what you're doing to help give them something of value that they may not be thinking of or doing on their own? So I love the example that you gave. That's a great example. If somebody's trying to do something similar, how do you recommend that they even get in touch with these people? How do they start to build that relationship just in general? Actually, how did you build these relationships, just in general?

Greg Kallman  33:02

I mean, I think it goes back to anything in life, whether it be looking for a job, whether it be looking for money, whether it be dating, any of that. Like, that rejection is real. And it's not to say that these conversations were easy, or that they all succeeded. I remember one of them that we had early on, we started out, I wanted to be helpful, and just was ghosted, there was nothing else there. And it was because you know, we were a small fish, and they were bigger, and just didn't work. And even in the other ones, the ones that have succeeded, those dynamics were still true. I think the thing was finding people that match your personality, and are looking for that. So not everyone is going to be a hit. Not everyone is going to think like that. But you will find if you- whether it's looking on social media and reaching out, whether it's finding where they are, and just reaching out to them, and trying to convey what you're doing, and that you're not looking to, you know, get money or any of that. You're like, you just want to talk and learn about what they're doing and find a way to be helpful. In that, I think people- you'll find they are like these collaborative style personalities that are out there, that are excited about it. And so you have to try, and that is hard, that can feel uncomfortable, I still feel uncomfortable with it. And some of them drag on and don't go anywhere. And then some of them are a success. And when you have those successes, it's not stop and move on to the next one. I think there have been conversations where it's like, oh, should we you know, now that we've got this person, just move on and get five more? And I don't think that that's the right answer. I think it's get that person, and then make sure that they feel so over loved and over supported, that they're incredibly happy things are on the right track, then it's time to move on to the next one. And again, it comes back to that's what's going to build an enduring community and enduring relationships, versus it being like you said, a transactional experience.

Callan Harrington  34:52

Yeah. I'm curious, do you have an advisory board where you've got a number of these different type of people on?

Greg Kallman  34:58

So, we don't yet have it in a, how do I say, like an official capacity. But we talk to everyone that we work with on a regular basis. It's very important. We get a lot of feedback. Again, a lot of ideas have come up through those conversations. We just started pinning news content, for example, to the top of our news feed, as the result of one of those conversations, and we have it, and then a week later we had it in the app. And so between that and all these other things, like, we're actively in conversation. That's one of the things though, that I think is important. And we've had on our roadmap of we should build out this panel, some of these people who are like close advisers, and leveraging them in like an official capacity. And not even just for us, I think the important thing is it also supports them. We went to Austin a year later, after the first fiasco with the tailgate mishap. And this year, we're very lucky, because we had a dinner with all of these creator and content or brand partners that we've worked with over the year. We had a dinner with all of them where we sat down, and there was no agenda except have fun and meet each other. And we want to meet you face-to-face, like you talked about with the insurance companies, like the the actual interpersonal face-to-face relationship. From that, they're collaborating with one another. And that, you know, that may have happened. We're not the only way that they could reach out. But I like to think that building this place that everyone feels comfortable and confident in and supported by unlocks other opportunities for them. And so that's how we've approached it. And that's how we'll treat it, going forward.

Callan Harrington  36:29

Yeah, which is right aligned with what you said before on building those collaborative relationships. And I thought that was such a good point. Some people are just more naturally drawn to collaborating, and some people like to operate in a vacuum. And I'm not saying anyone's wrong, it's just noticing that is really important. One of the things I'm curious- so you guys have had a lot of early success. What have been some of those roadblocks, some of those obstacles, that you've had to overcome to unlock that success?

Greg Kallman  36:53

Again, how long does your editor have? Does he work by the hour? (laughs)

Callan Harrington  36:58

Yeah, yeah, we pay him a couple of million bucks. It's totally fine.

Greg Kallman  37:02

All right, good. There's so many things. I actually thought about this last night, how I'd want to answer it. I think there's so many mistakes that we have made from the beginning, but I I like to think that with all of them, in the same way that I had to have the confidence to get going on this, or that you did for yourself, and anyone listening has to for themselves, I think the biggest thing is looking at all of them not as a mistake, or a roadblock, but as just another learning that you have to go through and that the nature of these kinds of, especially early stage companies, is like this is just how life is. The difference was that BCG, you know, what's it seven billion dollars or something in revenue, like someone would take out most of the variability or if the headache, right? You could call Legal, you could call whomever, and in this phase, you know, everything we do or try, we'll make mistakes on, but we're, they're really just learning opportunities. And I think the biggest thing for me has been making sure that I'm in the right headspace. And I actually work with Lizzie a lot. She's like an amazing resource to stay in the right headspace for me. But that's been the biggest thing, is like how do I manage my own mental clarity and focus to just keep working through them? Because especially the early days, like sleeping could have been a problem. I had anxiety at times in the middle of the night. I still do. And just like being able to roll with the punches, I think, has been the the biggest roadblock or challenge about the whole thing.

Callan Harrington  38:29

Yeah. What I found too, is like, that never stops. It just never stops. And actually, I think one of the interesting parallels is you mentioned BCG, but the reality is, these companies that you're working with are gigantic, and they're calling you because they're still having issues. It just never stops. You're always gonna have issues no matter what the company is, at any size. There just happens to be a hell of a lot more of them in the early days.

Greg Kallman  38:49

Yeah, exactly.

Callan Harrington  38:50

Which is part of the fun actually. Once you get over the first couple panic attacks, it becomes a lot easier.

Greg Kallman  38:55

Yes. (laughs)

Callan Harrington  38:57

So what comes next for you? What comes next for FanAmp? And what I'm curious, what do you feel that you need to do to be able to be prepared to be able to execute on what comes next for FanAmp?

Greg Kallman  39:07

Yeah, I think it really comes down to continuing to build an amazing team. And you talked about the advisor network, like to me, it manifests as like advisors, as investors, continuing to build our bench of talent across the board, so that we can continue to deliver a higher and higher bar of quality and a better experience for people in the space. The focus for the near term is going to stay on F1. I think there's a lot of opportunity. And I think we will be the place within F1. And then, when we feel good and comfortable with that, then we'll move on to other sports or other shows, like you mentioned. To me, this model and this approach is not something that just needs to live within this space, and it won't live within this space, but I want to make sure that we have it right, and again, in the same way we show up with our partners with a level of quality and focus, we need to show up for our fans, our users, with the same level of quality and focus. And so until we have that right, and have them feeling 150% amazing about this, then we still have more work to do, and I want to make sure we're focused on that.

Callan Harrington  40:13

How do you prevent yourself from going these other avenues, and staying focused on F1? It's one of the biggest challenges I have as founder, period, is I get so excited about ideas, and I want to do it. And the reality is, because I'm not at a company, I can go chase all these ideas. It doesn't work, you spin your wheels, and everything else, but I have to assume, like, that's one of the biggest things as I was kind of doing research on this episode was, F1 is gonna be like, it's a goldmine. It's huge, gigantic, it's growing, all the things that you could think of. But I would also look at like, and I joked around in one of our emails is like, the Ohio State football forums are an absolute mess. I love it, but it's like, how do you prevent yourself when you see these other things that are out there? How do you prevent yourself from going after those too soon, and really focusing in on that ideal customer profile?

Greg Kallman  41:03

You asked about roadblocks, or I called it mistakes or whatever. I learned that immediately. So I was so nervous to send an Instagram post for the first time, about like, what was on TV this specific week, when we first started. And like, literally my brother lives on the floor below me in New York, in the same apartment building. And so I like went down to David, I was like, is this good? Like, should I do it? And which is just funny in and of itself, like some things that scare you, that just shouldn't, because it doesn't matter. But that post was, I think at the time, it was like the NBA, UFC, The Bachelor was starting. Like, there were five different things in that post, four or five things. And I kept doing that for maybe like a month or two. And I noticed how fragmented the messaging was. Again, the model is the same, the messaging and the identity was fragmented. And so I learned from that to be focused, and in that focus period is where I got to where F1 is the one. And so I learned from that, that at least from a content perspective, we will stay focused on that space. The thing that I have to keep thinking about are, what was the vision for the platform, and what we want to serve and what we don't want to serve. And then do we have enough in each of those pillars where like, the experience feels comprehensive. And we feel like we're showing people the vision. And so I'm making sure in all of my conversations with partners, or with others, that like, if we're adding something that it is serving, it fits into one of those pillars, and that it is serving either us or them, but ideally both, in a way that makes this vision easier to sell, makes it more attractive for people to come in, all of those things. And so I just try and measure it against that. I still get super excited about things. There's still things that we, I'm trying to add or or iterate on. But I think we figured out a lot of the pillars we want. And now it's about refining the experience, which is exciting, because it's a different chapter that the business is moving into.

Callan Harrington  43:03

Yeah. Last question I have for you, Greg, if you could have a conversation with your younger self, age truly up to you, what would that conversation be? What advice would you give them?

Greg Kallman  43:13

Learn to code? (laughs)

Callan Harrington  43:16

(laughs)

Greg Kallman  43:16

No, but I do think that though. I definitely- if anyone is listening and is thinking about it, there was a moment very early on in this where I called my parents, I was like, I'm so frustrated because this thing is sitting in my head, and I can't bring it to life. I didn't know design tools. Like, I could draw on on a piece of paper, but I would show it to people and they'd be like, what the hell is this? It's like a bunch of boxes, and I can't read your handwriting. And so like being able to bring it to life, and having that skill set, I think is incredibly powerful. And so I recommend that to people, or to my younger self, whether that be coding, whether that- I'm not a designer or that good at it. So probably coding. And then the other thing I think is: just do it. I mean, I'm curious if you would say the same thing for yourself, but there's a lot of things that you learn as you try and go with it. And I still think going into one of these structured roles that's incredibly rigorous, like, whether it be banking, or consulting, or something of the like, that really just like kicks your ass for a couple years. I still think it's incredibly rewarding. But then just take the leap and do it younger, because you should. And again, you'll learn it as you go. So if you have the right attitude, if you've got, you know, a supportive network of people around you, just try it. I'm no longer afraid of the failure component of it. Like I look back at no matter what happens ever, this has been an incredible success, personally, professionally, all of that. And so the rest is just upside, like we're playing with house money. And I think it's just better to get started.

Callan Harrington  44:42

I totally agree with that. And I think one of the things that I found out pretty quickly, and you know, you mentioned earlier like was it a confidence thing? It was I will say it was definitely a confidence thing, in that I had a fear of what that would look like if I failed. That will is a real fear. And it was like, oh, no, like, this person is not very good. Is this gonna affect the career trajectory that I've been on? Is this gonna hurt me like, okay, if I burn through all my savings is that then it's like, okay, well, then I can never start a business again. And those were real fears. When I first started the business, that's when it was like, they were there, but those slowly started to dissipate. And very similar to what yourself is, I don't want to say I don't care if I fail, but it's not preventing me from doing anything. And I realized very quickly, you could easily go right on the track that you are on, if not go another level above. And now I understand it, we've heard so many entrepreneurs before, they will burn through all their savings, they will fail that company, they will go get a job, and then they hit it big on their next one. And not to like say, like, hit it big's the goal. The goal is to for me is build something great that people love. It sounds like it's very similar to yourself. But yeah, I don't have the fear anymore. So I think that's such a good example and actually drew an insight for me or like, what was that? It was, yeah, it was fear of failure, for sure, what prevented me from doing it. No question about it.

Greg Kallman  46:02

Yeah, and a lot of, you know, I used to, at least I used to think about this a lot of like, oh, there's gonna be a gap in my resume. What is that going to mean? Or, you know, you have this company that that closed, and what does that mean? That, like you said, like, it's, the first thing you realize is that there's a lot of founders who, they raise money the first time and the company went under, and then they just raise it again, because they were successful at doing that. They could execute, but the idea didn't work, and the timing, there's so many factors. I think it's you get yourself, you pick yourself up, and you keep going, and like people actually don't look at that like it's a bad thing. Like don't go embezzle money, or don't go do something malicious, but if I gave it a go, and like people know your reputation, then there's no risk, so to speak. Obviously, like you could lose money or other things, but like, if you're comfortable with that, then there's no actual like career risk to you. Just go try.

Callan Harrington  46:47

100% agree with that. 100% agree with that. Greg, this has been awesome, man. I appreciate you coming on. I could obviously talk all day. So thank you for coming on.

Greg Kallman  46:55

Thank you for having me. It's been awesome.

Callan Harrington  47:01

I hope you enjoy Greg and I's conversation. To me, I loved hearing his opening story, and it was such a good reminder that there is no replacement for getting together with your customers in person. If you want to learn more about Greg, you could find him on LinkedIn in the show notes. Also, if you liked this episode, you could find me on LinkedIn to let me know. And if you really want to support the show, a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify is very much appreciated. Thanks for listening, everybody, and I'll see you next week.